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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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Unholy alliance

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  • Unholy alliance

    Revelation 13:11-12
    And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


    Preterism usually teaches that the earth beast is apostate Israel, and that it depicts the Jews who cooperated with Caesar against the Christians. Preterists usually teach that the fatal head wound was the death of Nero.

    However, history teaches that the Jews rebelled against Rome prior to the death of Nero. Nero appointed Vespasian to attack the Jews. Hence, I don't think the Preterist explanation makes sense.

  • #2
    Obsidian, I'm just curious. Did you not notice these discrepencies before you adopted preterism as your belief? If so, why did you not question them then?
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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    • #3
      Most of the preterist evangelism doesn't deal with Revelation.

      I think that preterism explains many passages, but it doesn't explain them all. What mainly got me thinking was when I heard an online pastor adopt a more historicist-type understanding of certain passages. I still think futurism is basically a joke. However, many historicist interpretations of Revelation are pretty hokey, too. I am currently undecided about many passages. That is why I keep making posts where I try to apply logic to the text. I'm not getting much feedback, though. I think God was trying to confuse us when he wrote most of this stuff.

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      • #4
        I just don't know how you can get past the fact that the apostles taught futurism. 2 Thess 2 is just one example. It in no way reflects a destruction of Jerusalem, or even an anticipation of a coming destruction, but reflects Paul putting their hysteria about the return of Christ in check with more dire signs to look for that would precede that event. That's futurism.
        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

        Comment


        • #5
          What about it teaches futurism?

          Comment


          • #6
            You wrongly interpret the Bible by assuming that anything which was future to the writers must remain future for us now. That said, I have never heard a good preterist explanation for 2 Thessalonians. But I have heard a pretty strong historicist view:

            2 Thessalonians 2
            3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (Catholicism), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (the Pope); 4 who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped (the "vicar of Christ"); so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God (the church), shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (Acts 17 describes that it was in Thessalonica where Paul's critics accused him of undermining Caesar) 6 And now ye know what withholdeth (the Roman emperor) that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work (gnosticism): only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (the fall of Rome)

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            • #7
              What about the billions in the world that aren't Catholic? v.11-12 indicates the deception spreads to all those who do not embrace the truth. What about Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Humanists, Pagans, Atheists....? None of these are fooled by the pope. And also, what miraculous powers, wonders and signs has the pope done to cause this deception?
              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

              Comment


              • #8
                Catholic history is replete with purported signs and wonders. That's a non-issue. And I don't see where the passage says that everyone has to believe in him.

                Comment


                • #9
                  For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness -- NASB

                  Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness -- ESV

                  Not only is it extremely prejudiced against Catholics, but it doesn't make sense to exclude everyone other than Catholics here, as there are billions of other people, including other Christian sects, that do not believe the truth and have pleasure in unrighteousness.
                  "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Your interpretation of the word "all" there is a stretch. It says that all are condemned who fail to believe the truth. It doesn't say that everyone in the world will believe one particular lie.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It states that the result of all those who do not believe the truth is believing a lie influenced by a delusion sent by God. The context is perfectly clear.
                      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I touched on this in the other threads, the 2 Horn kingdoms of the False Prophet are Jews Harlot + Gentiles Beast, together against the 2 Jews/Gentiles Olive Tree Prophets described in Romans/Revelation 11. Some examples:

                        John 19:15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

                        Luke 23:12 And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.

                        All the way back to Ezekiel 23 there's a love/hate relationship between the Harlot and the Beast.

                        Looking like a lamb but speaking like a dragon describes perhaps looking like a Jewish Messiah/King but speaking Gentile things of Satan and the Beast. Already fulfilled somewhat by Herod/Pilate agreeing that Jesus isn't Messiah.

                        However it's in relation to a wounded Head of the Beast restored.

                        To refresh, the Heads are brass/iron Greek/Roman kingdoms ruling Jerusalem as seen from Daniel 2/4 -- historically Macedonian, Ptolemaic, Seleucid brass. Iron: Roman/Hasmonean, Roman/Herodian the 5 fallen by the time of John's Revelation. 1 is, post-Temple Roman/Byzantine. 7th to come, Holy Roman Crusaders.

                        Thus the restoration seems to embody the phase that was most antichrist, which of course would be the Roman/Herodian alliance against Jesus. And now after nearly 2000 years Israel is restored, which itself is a sign of Messiah, it looks like a lamb. Yet it's secular with a lot of atheist leadership, and it still denies Jesus is Messiah. Speaks like a dragon, to me anyway.

                        I don't think we need to pinpoint a specific entity as the Gentile Beast facilitating this. The UK was certainly evolved a great deal out of Roman culture, but so is western civilization in general.

                        I don't think we need to see a global fulfillment in beheading, buying and selling, etc. It seems the process is still evolving. To me the economic aspect may be related to Jesus driving out the moneychangers and merchants from the Temple, where you had to use certain shekels to do business, though I'm not convinced a literal 3rd Temple is required.

                        The Mark itself seems related to the command for tefillin on the hand and forehead: maybe forgetting instead of remembering God delivered Israel.

                        666 ties in again with Solomon and his love of Gentile things:

                        1 Kings 10:14 Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,

                        It's all kind of about the same theme, Jerusalem being unfaithful to God with Gentile things, not limited to the 1st century Roman Empire.
                        Last edited by JohnnyP; 10-19-2014, 03:30 PM. Reason: Spelling

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                        • #13
                          If any part of Revelation was fulfilled at any time in the last ~2000 years then we are all at the same disadvantage, namely that we have no inspired account of the fulfillment. The historical record, even the highly detailed accounts of Josephus or later historians is necessarily fragmentary and imperfect.

                          I mostly lean toward a preterist, post millenial view, but like the OP I feel that there are still unsolved questions. Some of them are certainly issues with the biblical text but some I believe are due to weaknesses in the historical record. At least on that front there is some hope that additional scholarship and archaeology can improve the situation.

                          Futurist, pre-millenial, and historicist frameworks have been altogether unsatisfactory and I believe that they have greater systemic issues with the biblical text to say nothing of the historical account. They either rely upon a highly subjective historical lens or upon a colorful and creative extrapolation into the future. So I guess what I am saying is that my inclination toward preterism is somewhat pragmatic. I don't align myself with it completely but it seems to be the most successful approach. jmho.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                            You wrongly interpret the Bible by assuming that anything which was future to the writers must remain future for us now. That said, I have never heard a good preterist explanation for 2 Thessalonians.
                            Have you considered this preterist explanation of 2 Thessalonians 2?

                            The Man of Lawlessness: A Preteristic Postmillennial Interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2.

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                            • #15
                              I think historicism better explains the 10 horns, the sea beast, and the earth beast, compared to preterism. I've made several posts in this sub-forum poking holes (which I consider to be major) in the common preterist interpretation of Revelation.

                              That said, I think the typical historicist interpretation of the seals and trumpets has some major holes as well. I haven't made any posts about that because no one here advocates historicism anyway.

                              Myself, I am fairly open-minded still.

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