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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

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Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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Arguing against hyper preterism

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  • Arguing against hyper preterism

    I'm sure this is old hat for everybody else here but I've never waded into this debate before now.

    I am dialoguing with a hyper preterist who states that Jesus's second coming MUST have occurred in the first century because of Jesus's statement that this generation would not pass away until all this was fulfilled. What is the best means of attack for combatting this argument should I see it again?
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  • #2
    God/Jesus had more than one "coming." Wait upon the Lord.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
      God/Jesus had more than one "coming." Wait upon the Lord.
      That wasn't contested. The person affirmatively stated that the Second Coming happened in the First Century, on the basis that all had to be fulfilled within a generation.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #4
        The text doesn't say that.

        Comment


        • #5
          What about the millennium?
          -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
          Sir James Jeans

          -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
          Sir Isaac Newton

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            That wasn't contested. The person affirmatively stated that the Second Coming happened in the First Century, on the basis that all had to be fulfilled within a generation.
            The only "all" that had to be fulfilled was the set of conditions required for the successful introduction of the new covenant, so I'm guessing that the interpretation there might be just a little awry.

            2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up

            we ask you 2Thessalonians 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


            Archaeology seems to confirm that this Earth is the same that was in existence 2000 years ago. And there is no record of anyone setting himself up in the temple and declaring himself God. Of course, it could be argued that the falling away has occurred, but I'm not convinced.
            Last edited by tabibito; 08-03-2014, 10:18 AM.
            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness
              What about the millennium?
              This is always a very strong argument against hyperpreterism as well.

              Comment


              • #8
                Ah yes - the Olivet discourse: dealt with in more detail by Matthew than the other gospels.
                Three questions
                Mat 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Q1“Tell us, when will these things be? Q2 And what will be the sign of Your coming, and Q3 of the end of the age?”
                Three Answers
                Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 “And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows

                Mat 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 “And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 “Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 “And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 “But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

                Mat 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 “Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 “And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 “And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 “And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. 23 "Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 “See, I have told you beforehand.

                1 - Fall of the second temple, sacking of Jerusalem and the dispersion ... 2 - Current ... 3 - Future ... but each flows into the next in seamless progression.

                That, and the quote from 2 Thessalonians (post 6) should be sufficient.
                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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                • #9
                  From what I remember, the Millennium is thought by Hyper-preterists to be from 30 A.D.-70 A.D.

                  However, the millennium does specify that Satan is bound in that time so that he may not deceive the nations. And the NT supposes the exact opposite in this time frame. (2 Cor 2:11)
                  -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                  Sir James Jeans

                  -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                  Sir Isaac Newton

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    However, the millennium does specify that Satan is bound in that time so that he may not deceive the nations. And the NT supposes the exact opposite in this time frame. (2 Cor 2:11)
                    Filed for future reference
                    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                      However, the millennium does specify that Satan is bound in that time so that he may not deceive the nations. And the NT supposes the exact opposite in this time frame. (2 Cor 2:11)
                      However, bound does not necessarily mean cessation of all activity. He is bound with respect to a specific activity, eg from deceiving the nations.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post
                        However, bound does not necessarily mean cessation of all activity. He is bound with respect to a specific activity, eg from deceiving the nations.
                        There is also Rev 12:9 which speaks of Satan deceiving the world (present tense) and the parable of the weeds which implies that Satan is deceiving the nations. Finally, there is also 2 Cor 4:4 which shows that the god of this age has deceived (blinded) people around them.
                        -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                        Sir James Jeans

                        -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                        Sir Isaac Newton

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          It's not a bad point. But the main problem with hyperpreterism is that they turn a millennium into forty years, which is completely stupid.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                            There is also Rev 12:9 which speaks of Satan deceiving the world (present tense) and the parable of the weeds which implies that Satan is deceiving the nations. Finally, there is also 2 Cor 4:4 which shows that the god of this age has deceived (blinded) people around them.
                            Oh I agree that he's still deceiving but not the nations. Where once he held power over the majority of the nations keeping them in darkness, Israel being the exception. The cross has broken that power and he can not stop the spread of the Gospel. He must now seek those whom he may devour - 1 Peter 5:8. Jesus' parable in Matthew 12:29 seems to me to be talking of this present age when Jesus has bound the strong man (the Devil) and he is now plundering his house.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post
                              Oh I agree that he's still deceiving but not the nations. Where once he held power over the majority of the nations keeping them in darkness, Israel being the exception. The cross has broken that power and he can not stop the spread of the Gospel. He must now seek those whom he may devour - 1 Peter 5:8. Jesus' parable in Matthew 12:29 seems to me to be talking of this present age when Jesus has bound the strong man (the Devil) and he is now plundering his house.
                              Explain what the nations are.
                              -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                              Sir James Jeans

                              -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                              Sir Isaac Newton

                              Comment

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