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When is the Great Judgment?

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  • When is the Great Judgment?

    Did Judgment of Revelation 20 happen sometime in the past, did it start sometime in the past and still continue, or does it happen in a future "end of time" for all people at once?

    The related question, does the following refer to a time after Judgment in Revelation 21:1? Or to another event?

    Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    My own view, future Judgment for all people in the end, when all is fulfilled, and the Jewish Law remains until then. After that, New Covenant is fully in effect, and right now, we are in an "overlapping" phase where the New Covenant has been initiated but the Old Covenant which "decayeth and waxeth old" (Hebrews 8:13) is still not entirely fulfilled until the very end.

    Background from Theology 201:
    Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    No he said that Until Heaven and Earth pass away the Law would not pass away. The Law therefore passes away in Matt 24.
    Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
    Jumping back in for a minute, do you think it coincides with the following, and when does Judgment take place? In a future end, or did it start sometime in the past?
    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

    Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
    Start a new thread on it Johnny and we'll talk there

  • #2
    Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
    Did Judgment of Revelation 20 happen sometime in the past, did it start sometime in the past and still continue, or does it happen in a future "end of time" for all people at once?

    The related question, does the following refer to a time after Judgment in Revelation 21:1? Or to another event?


    My own view, future Judgment for all people in the end, when all is fulfilled, and the Jewish Law remains until then. After that, New Covenant is fully in effect, and right now, we are in an "overlapping" phase where the New Covenant has been initiated but the Old Covenant which "decayeth and waxeth old" (Hebrews 8:13) is still not entirely fulfilled until the very end.

    Background from Theology 201:





    My opinion is what I call hybrid preterism. I term it this because I believe it is a hybrid between partial and full preterism. More or less, I think an actual resurrection of the dead took place around the time of the Jewish War but not the final one.

    This article makes notes of Suetonius and Cassius Dio to support its point.
    http://revelationrevolution.org/1-th...ection/#_edn12

    More support could possibly be found in the writings of Josephus and Tacitus.

    Josephus
    Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one-and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities (7). Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking (8), and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." (9)

    Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
    "13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).
    http://www.preteristarchive.com/Stud...in-clouds.html
    (N.B.: I don't know too much about this but Tacitus may be drawing on Pseudo-Phocylides for the idea of "gods" in the context of the Jews or just importing his own polytheism into the narrative)
    Pseudo-Phocylides 103-4 ...we hope that the remains of the departed will soon come to light again out of the earth. And afterward, they will become gods.
    http://www.tektonics.org/lp/physrez.php
    -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
    Sir James Jeans

    -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
    Sir Isaac Newton

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    • #3
      Would you say that in, "Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." it is about the time of a final future Judgment?

      Or is it about heaven and earth passing in terms of, the Kingdom of Heaven shall be taken by violence, the earth of Jerusalem shall pass, in terms of Jerusalem's destruction?

      Or might you see a dual fulfillment regarding passing of the Old Covenant: first doing away with the Temple, then future abolishing of the Law after Judgment when people don't die under the Law anymore?

      I'm sorry for seeming multiple topics but they kind of tie in for me pertaining to a completed future end, as explained. Although I can see a partial fulfillment in Jerusalem's destruction.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
        Would you say that in, "Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." it is about the time of a final future Judgment?

        Or is it about heaven and earth passing in terms of, the Kingdom of Heaven shall be taken by violence, the earth of Jerusalem shall pass, in terms of Jerusalem's destruction?

        Or might you see a dual fulfillment regarding passing of the Old Covenant: first doing away with the Temple, then future abolishing of the Law after Judgment when people don't die under the Law anymore?

        I'm sorry for seeming multiple topics but they kind of tie in for me pertaining to a completed future end, as explained. Although I can see a partial fulfillment in Jerusalem's destruction.
        I see Heaven and Earth as referring to the passing away of the rulers/upper class of Old covenant Israel (Heaven) and the ones of Israel who were ruled over (Earth)
        http://tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm

        N.B In Isaiah 65, the New Heaven and Earth is New Jerusalem.
        -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
        Sir James Jeans

        -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
        Sir Isaac Newton

        Comment


        • #5
          Of relevance, I believe, is Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away".

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Paprika View Post
            Of relevance, I believe, is Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away".
            Yep I was also going to mention that in relation to the future final Great Judgment, with the preceding and elsewhere:

            Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

            Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
            I don't believe these must be locked into the 1st century, rather may also imply dual fulfillment since "passing" and "death" may not only refer to physical death, but to the Second Death after Judgment, again when everything is completely fulfilled.

            Comment


            • #7
              "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." -- 2 Peter 3:10. The coming of the Lord and the judgement are telescoped here.

              ". . . in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." -- 2 Peter 3:10.

              "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them." -- Revelation 20:11. This takes place just prior to the Judgement.

              I believe the judgement takes place after the millennium comes to its completion.

              ________________________

              "And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree." -- Isaiah 34:4.

              "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places." -- Revelation 6:14.

              I'm of the opinion what we see in the distant past of our universe is not its birth, but God rolling it up. What science is interpreting as dark energy. If this is true. The future measurements of the age of the universe may yet be younger than the current 13.8 billion years.

              So at Christ's second coming, I'm of the opinion that our universe is on its last 1000 years.
              Last edited by 37818; 01-26-2014, 04:01 AM.
              . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                I believe the judgement takes place after the millennium comes to its completion.
                So at Christ's second coming, I'm of the opinion that our universe is on its last 1000 years.
                Yeah I currently see it that way too.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Question: When is the Great Judgment?

                  Answer: When Christ returns.
                  For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                    Question: When is the Great Judgment?

                    Answer: When Christ returns.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      I find it's best to keep it simple.
                      For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                        Question: When is the Great Judgment?

                        Answer: When Christ returns.

                        This.

                        /thread
                        ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

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