How did the Egyptian magicians turn their staffs into snakes? What does this mean for "Christians" who don't think supernatural events occur? If there are sorcerers like Jannes and Jambres today who "oppose the truth", is it possible that they also serve or are the rulers of this present world? Would that make preterism more likely to be true or futurism more likely to be true?
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Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
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Jannes and Jambres' "secret arts"
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Jannes and Jambres' "secret arts"
How did the Egyptian magicians turn their staffs into snakes? What does this mean for "Christians" who don't think supernatural events occur? If there are sorcerers like Jannes and Jambres today who "oppose the truth", is it possible that they also serve or are the rulers of this present world? Would that make preterism more likely to be true or futurism more likely to be true?Tags: None
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Originally posted by Darfius View PostWhat does this mean for "Christians" who don't think supernatural events occur?
I'm aware of no such people. You're about to commit a strawman of all strawmen and claim that you're referring to preterists though."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Darfius View Post
How did the Egyptian magicians turn their staffs into snakes? What does this mean for "Christians" who don't think supernatural events occur? If there are sorcerers like Jannes and Jambres today who "oppose the truth", is it possible that they also serve or are the rulers of this present world? Would that make preterism more likely to be true or futurism more likely to be true?
But as to the rest of it, I don't know if they really turned the staffs into snakes or if it was just a slight of hand trick they used. And then Aaron did the real thing.
Regardless, Christians have to believe in supernatural events, or they would not be Christians. God, angels, demons, are all supernatural beings.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhat evidence do you have that "Jannes and Jambres" is referring to the magicians of the Pharaoh?The names Jannes and Jambres (Greek: Ἰάννης, Ἰαμβρῆς; Iannēs, Iambrēs) appear in 2 Timothy[2] in the New Testament. Origen says that there was an apocryphal book called The Book of Jannes and Jambres, containing details of their exploits, and that Paul the Apostle was quoting from it. This book, known as The Apocryphon of Jannes and Jambres the magicians, exists in some Greek fragments present in the Chester Beatty Papyri No XVI (which has been edited and translated by Albert Pietersma[3]), and in an extensive Ethiopic fragment which was discovered in 2014.[4] It was also probably known to the Qumran community, since the Qumran community refers to one of the magicians by the name of Jannes.[5] The Testament of Solomon also refers to the magicians by the name of Jannes and Jambres.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannes_and_Jambres
Scripture explicitly states that the staffs "became a snake", so why would you "not know"?
Regardless, Christians have to believe in supernatural events, or they would not be Christians. God, angels, demons, are all supernatural beings.
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Originally posted by Darfius View PostThe names Jannes and Jambres (Greek: Ἰάννης, Ἰαμβρῆς; Iannēs, Iambrēs) appear in 2 Timothy[2] in the New Testament. Origen says that there was an apocryphal book called The Book of Jannes and Jambres, containing details of their exploits, and that Paul the Apostle was quoting from it. This book, known as The Apocryphon of Jannes and Jambres the magicians, exists in some Greek fragments present in the Chester Beatty Papyri No XVI (which has been edited and translated by Albert Pietersma[3]), and in an extensive Ethiopic fragment which was discovered in 2014.[4] It was also probably known to the Qumran community, since the Qumran community refers to one of the magicians by the name of Jannes.[5] The Testament of Solomon also refers to the magicians by the name of Jannes and Jambres.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannes_and_Jambres
Scripture explicitly states that the staffs "became a snake", so why would you "not know"?
Either way, I believe Aaron's staff did turn into a snake.
I was under the impression preterists claimed Satan was bound. Why would Satan be bound and the other demons be free to cause havoc? Wouldn't that be like locking up Hitler and leaving the rest of the Nazis free?
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe bible often just describes things from the point of view of the observer. It could have appeared that the staff turned into a snake. Or it could be that the staff really did. Satan likes to counterfeit miracles.
Either way, I believe Aaron's staff did turn into a snake.
I am not a preterist. But even if they did believe that, they still believe in God and his miracles, so they believe in the supernatural. At least the orthodox preterists I know.
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Originally posted by Darfius View PostCan you give an example of the Bible "describing things from the point of view of the observer" without making it clear it is doing so? Again, the text is giving a description of what happened and even says the magicians did the "same thing" with their staffs as Aaron did with his.
They believe that there are Satanically empowered magicians potentially serving the most powerful men in the world (as Pharaoh was), but they are still preterists? That strikes me as very poor thinking. Usually thinking that poor is a result of the desire of the heart to avoid uncomfortable truths. Sin makes us fools.
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Originally posted by Darfius View PostCan you give an example of the Bible "describing things from the point of view of the observer" without making it clear it is doing so?
As for the magicians, regardless of how many there were or what their names were, they could very much be like magicians of today, able to do parlor tricks and sleight of hand. How much time did they have to prepare their tricks? Maybe they used actual snakes drugged or in chilled conditions so as to appear temporarily immobile and disguised as sticks. Just guessing. Do supernatural events occur these days? Possibly. Do "Christians" perform parlor tricks to make it appears like supernatural events or miracles? Do they ever!!!When I Survey....
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postsure. When it says that the sun stopped in Joshua 10. Since the sun isn't moving around the Earth in the first place, it was probably the Earth that stood still and it was just described as the sun and moon standing still.
Similarly, the magicians' staffs also turned into snakes when they did "the same" as Aaron, whether the source of their ability was the same as his or not.
Do you understand what preterists are? They just have a different view of the end times than you or I do. It doesn't mean they don't believe in the supernatural or the miracles in the bible.
Obviously the presence of world power serving Satanic magicians would be better explained by prophecy being fulfilled in the future rather than Satan having already been bound. This is just one of many reasons preterists are wicked, stupid people leading themselves and others into hell as the Lord Jesus accused the sign [prophecy] ignoring Pharisees of doing.
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Originally posted by Faber View PostScripture is full of such examples. Four corners of the earth, four winds, uttermost parts of the earth, etc. How far is the east from the west? about 12,500 miles?
Will you now accuse the Lord Jesus of being ignorant of the shape of the world He created?
As for the magicians, regardless of how many there were or what their names were, they could very much be like magicians of today, able to do parlor tricks and sleight of hand. How much time did they have to prepare their tricks? Maybe they used actual snakes drugged or in chilled conditions so as to appear temporarily immobile and disguised as sticks. Just guessing. Do supernatural events occur these days? Possibly. Do "Christians" perform parlor tricks to make it appears like supernatural events or miracles? Do they ever!!!
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Originally posted by Daffius View PostWill you now accuse the Lord Jesus of being ignorant of the shape of the world He created?
Originally posted by Daffius View PostFeel free to speculate about how they actually did what Scripture says they actually did, though I am well aware that will not be as easy for you to handwave away.
Especially MORONS!
As for feigning ignorance of their names, or how many of them there were: I got no problem believing that Paul quoted the Targum, Talmud or other non-Biblical literature,When I Survey....
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Originally posted by Fibber View PostYou kidding me? Everybody knew in Jesus's time what shape the world was. It was even calculated by Eratosthenes two centuries before Jesus with unusual accuracy for his time. Then he went on to measure the size of the moon and the distance between the earth and moon.
Magic tricks are easy. Just use illusions or visual tricks to deceive people. It doesn't take anything supernatural to fool people.
Especially MORONS!
As for feigning ignorance of their names, or how many of them there were: I got no problem believing that Paul quoted the Targum, Talmud or other non-Biblical literature,
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