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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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Jannes and Jambres' "secret arts"

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Darfius View Post
    Thank you, but the sun did stand still in the sky. That was an objective event, whatever the explanation. The key words are "in the sky". That is not a statement about whether the sun itself stopped moving, but that it did indeed stop moving "in the sky" (that is, from the perspective of someone on earth).

    Similarly, the magicians' staffs also turned into snakes when they did "the same" as Aaron, whether the source of their ability was the same as his or not.
    It is still describing the incident from the point of view of the observer. The Earth would have been the thing that stopped not the moon or the sun. From the view of the people on the ground, it appeared as though the sun and moon stopped in the sky. You even admit it your self when you say "that is, from the perspective of someone on earth"


    Yes, I understand what preterists are better than they do. There is no "just" when it comes to the truth. It alone can set us free, as stated by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. He is the ultimate embodiment of the truth, so if one does not love the truth, that one certainly cannot love Him.

    Obviously the presence of world power serving Satanic magicians would be better explained by prophecy being fulfilled in the future rather than Satan having already been bound. This is just one of many reasons preterists are wicked, stupid people leading themselves and others into hell as the Lord Jesus accused the sign [prophecy] ignoring Pharisees of doing.

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 16

    1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven.

    2 He replied, “When evening comes, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,’ 3 and in the morning, ‘Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Jesus then left them and went away.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Matthew 23

    13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

    15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

    © Copyright Original Source

    You still didn't show that preterists don't believe in the supernatural.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Regardless, Christians have to believe in supernatural events, or they would not be Christians. God, angels, demons, are all supernatural beings.
      I have run into some Christians that don't believe in supernatural events but still call themselves Christians. I think they simply view Jesus as a 'Great Moral Teacher' and call themselves Christian because they are following His moral teachings.

      Personally, I hold people like that are not Christians but I can't control what label they apply to themselves.
      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
        I have run into some Christians that don't believe in supernatural events but still call themselves Christians. I think they simply view Jesus as a 'Great Moral Teacher' and call themselves Christian because they are following His moral teachings.

        Personally, I hold people like that are not Christians but I can't control what label they apply to themselves.
        Yeah I can live in a garage and call myself a car, but that doesn't make me one.

        Those who just believe Jesus was just a good teacher are basically fooling themselves, no different than the people who belong to cults.

        Comment


        • #19
          The Batman(denying Jesus was fully God) heresy? Just as bad of a mistake as the Superman heresy(denying that Jesus was fully human)!
          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
            The Batman(denying Jesus was fully God) heresy? Just as bad of a mistake as the Superman heresy(denying that Jesus was fully human)!
            No, I think they are pretty much denying Jesus was any God. Questionable if they actually believe God exists.
            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
              No, I think they are pretty much denying Jesus was any God. Questionable if they actually believe God exists.
              The joke(not original to me, came from a book I read recently) is that liberal "Christians" think Jesus was merely an exceptional human, like Batman.
              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                It is still describing the incident from the point of view of the observer. The Earth would have been the thing that stopped not the moon or the sun. From the view of the people on the ground, it appeared as though the sun and moon stopped in the sky. You even admit it your self when you say "that is, from the perspective of someone on earth"
                All I needed to show was that the perspective given was not that merely of the author's. The text says that the sun stood still in the sky, which was an objectively true statement. You and Fibber were attempting to handwave away the work of the magicians as a trick of perspective, but the Bible (Holy Spirit) was clear to word it the way it did to remove that possibility. The magicians' staffs absolutely became snakes "in the same way" that Aaron's did.

                You still didn't show that preterists don't believe in the supernatural.
                I'm confused, is Satan bound according to preterists or not?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                  All I needed to show was that the perspective given was not that merely of the author's. The text says that the sun stood still in the sky, which was an objectively true statement. You and Fibber were attempting to handwave away the work of the magicians as a trick of perspective, but the Bible (Holy Spirit) was clear to word it the way it did to remove that possibility. The magicians' staffs absolutely became snakes "in the same way" that Aaron's did.
                  It could be or it could be just from the perspective of the observer. When I see a magician do a trick I describe what it looks like not what he actually did. I will say "He sawed a woman in half" even though he did no such thing, it was an illusion. And yes the sun standing still WAS a "trick of perspective" which was described from the point of view of the observer.


                  I'm confused, is Satan bound according to preterists or not?
                  I don't know. But they believe Satan is a supernatural being, as is God, and they believe God did miracles, and other supernatural things. So to claim they don't believe in the supernatural or supernatural events is just silly.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    The Book of Revelation is highly symbolic, and there is much disagreement over its meaning. Is Chapters 19-20 referring to a literal beast, false prophet and Satan, or are they symbols of the Roman Empire's demise?

                    I don't know and I'm not making any claims to know everything about Revelation.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      It could be or it could be just from the perspective of the observer. When I see a magician do a trick I describe what it looks like not what he actually did. I will say "He sawed a woman in half" even though he did no such thing, it was an illusion. And yes the sun standing still WAS a "trick of perspective" which was described from the point of view of the observer.
                      You could save us both a lot of time and effort by just admitting you don't believe in the divine inspiration of the Bible. The language of Exodus makes it clear that the magicians did, in fact, change their staffs into snakes just as Aaron did. Why we are even discussing this is beyond me.


                      I don't know. But they believe Satan is a supernatural being, as is God, and they believe God did miracles, and other supernatural things. So to claim they don't believe in the supernatural or supernatural events is just silly.
                      If there are Satanically empowered magicians capable of altering matter today for the world powers as they did in the days of Moses, then preterism is false. That seems simple to understand to me.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Faber View Post
                        The Book of Revelation is highly symbolic, and there is much disagreement over its meaning. Is Chapters 19-20 referring to a literal beast, false prophet and Satan, or are they symbols of the Roman Empire's demise?

                        I don't know and I'm not making any claims to know everything about Revelation.
                        The "symbolism" of Revelation is mostly lifted directly from the OT where it is explained, sometimes in vivid detail. You don't know about Revelation because you don't want to know about Revelation. And your willful ignorance and disobedience is quickly catching up with you, as it is for everyone not prepared for these times.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                          You could save us both a lot of time and effort by just admitting you don't believe in the divine inspiration of the Bible. The language of Exodus makes it clear that the magicians did, in fact, change their staffs into snakes just as Aaron did. Why we are even discussing this is beyond me.
                          Of course the bible is divinely inspired. That doesn't preclude the bible being written in layman's language and describing things from an observer's viewpoint. You just seem to be set in the idea it has to be real magic and not an illusion and nothing anyone says will change your mind so you attack them instead. I am open to it being either. It's really not that important to me which it was.



                          If there are Satanically empowered magicians capable of altering matter today for the world powers as they did in the days of Moses, then preterism is false. That seems simple to understand to me.
                          Why would that make preterism false? Because Satan is bound? There is obviously evil in the world so if he is bound then he is not the only source. Can you give any examples of Satan magic altering matter today? Something that isn't your delusional Mandela Effect?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Of course the bible is divinely inspired. That doesn't preclude the bible being written in layman's language and describing things from an observer's viewpoint. You just seem to be set in the idea it has to be real magic and not an illusion and nothing anyone says will change your mind so you attack them instead. I am open to it being either. It's really not that important to me which it was.
                            Scripture Verse: Exodus 7

                            12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            Where do you see room for an illusion there? Aaron's staff "swallowed up" their staffs, which had to have been in the form of snakes in order for this to make any sense at all. I know you can read, so the only explanation that makes sense to me is that you don't care what the truth of this matter (and therefore not really any matter) is.

                            Scripture Verse: Exodus 8

                            16 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell Aaron, ‘Stretch out your staff and strike the dust of the ground,’ and throughout the land of Egypt the dust will become gnats.” 17 They did this, and when Aaron stretched out his hand with the staff and struck the dust of the ground, gnats came on people and animals. All the dust throughout the land of Egypt became gnats. 18 But when the magicians tried to produce gnats by their secret arts, they could not.

                            Since the gnats were on people and animals everywhere, 19 the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the Lord had said.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            In the plagues before this, the magicians had been able to turn water to blood and produce frogs respectively. To believe they had done so by, for example, pouring red dye into water and hiding frogs in their underwear to produce misses the point. Pharaoh summoned them to do "the same thing" Moses and Aaron were doing to prove that they had no special divine mandate. Aside from the likelihood that attempting to deceive Pharaoh about the veracity of their magic would have gotten them killed, the fact that they could not reproduce the first plague which required changing inanimate matter to life (the staffs were formerly living wood) and admitted "it was the finger of God" shows that they had genuinely reproduced the former plagues.

                            Why would that make preterism false? Because Satan is bound? There is obviously evil in the world so if he is bound then he is not the only source. Can you give any examples of Satan magic altering matter today? Something that isn't your delusional Mandela Effect?
                            Scripture Verse: Revelation 20

                            20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            So I hope we can agree it would be idiocy to only keep Satan from "deceiving the nations" while allowing all of the powers under him to continue doing so. Clearly the point of this and the rest of the verses preterists put through the shredder is that the Millenium will be distinct from most of human history by virtue of humanity not having to deal with "the powers and principalities" we wrestle against now.

                            So because there is "obviously evil" in the world, preterism is false.

                            I don't need to give present day examples of Satan magic altering matter today, though of course the Mandela Effect has been proven true to anyone made aware of it with any integrity, as is its purpose. If it was possible in Moses' day, then of course it's possible now. Nothing has changed, because Satan is still "the god of this world." He hasn't been bound.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I will leave you to your anger and delusions.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                The Mandela effect had been proven true?
                                (Is this guy off his rocker, or what??!!!)

                                Comment

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