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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

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Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

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Jannes and Jambres' "secret arts"

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  • Jannes and Jambres' "secret arts"

    Scripture Verse: 2 Timothy 3

    8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Exodus 7

    10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.

    © Copyright Original Source



    How did the Egyptian magicians turn their staffs into snakes? What does this mean for "Christians" who don't think supernatural events occur? If there are sorcerers like Jannes and Jambres today who "oppose the truth", is it possible that they also serve or are the rulers of this present world? Would that make preterism more likely to be true or futurism more likely to be true?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Darfius View Post
    What does this mean for "Christians" who don't think supernatural events occur?

    I'm aware of no such people. You're about to commit a strawman of all strawmen and claim that you're referring to preterists though.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      I'm aware of no such people. You're about to commit a strawman of all strawmen and claim that you're referring to preterists though.
      That would be no worse than you cherry picking which of my questions to answer.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Darfius View Post
        Scripture Verse: 2 Timothy 3

        8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.

        © Copyright Original Source



        Scripture Verse: Exodus 7

        10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.

        © Copyright Original Source



        How did the Egyptian magicians turn their staffs into snakes? What does this mean for "Christians" who don't think supernatural events occur? If there are sorcerers like Jannes and Jambres today who "oppose the truth", is it possible that they also serve or are the rulers of this present world? Would that make preterism more likely to be true or futurism more likely to be true?
        What evidence do you have that "Jannes and Jambres" is referring to the magicians of the Pharaoh?

        But as to the rest of it, I don't know if they really turned the staffs into snakes or if it was just a slight of hand trick they used. And then Aaron did the real thing.

        Regardless, Christians have to believe in supernatural events, or they would not be Christians. God, angels, demons, are all supernatural beings.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          What evidence do you have that "Jannes and Jambres" is referring to the magicians of the Pharaoh?
          The names Jannes and Jambres (Greek: Ἰάννης, Ἰαμβρῆς; Iannēs, Iambrēs) appear in 2 Timothy[2] in the New Testament. Origen says that there was an apocryphal book called The Book of Jannes and Jambres, containing details of their exploits, and that Paul the Apostle was quoting from it. This book, known as The Apocryphon of Jannes and Jambres the magicians, exists in some Greek fragments present in the Chester Beatty Papyri No XVI (which has been edited and translated by Albert Pietersma[3]), and in an extensive Ethiopic fragment which was discovered in 2014.[4] It was also probably known to the Qumran community, since the Qumran community refers to one of the magicians by the name of Jannes.[5] The Testament of Solomon also refers to the magicians by the name of Jannes and Jambres.

          Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannes_and_Jambres

          Scripture Verse:

          But as to the rest of it, I don't know if they really turned the staffs into snakes or if it was just a slight of hand trick they used. And then Aaron did the real thing.

          © Copyright Original Source



          Scripture explicitly states that the staffs "became a snake", so why would you "not know"?

          Regardless, Christians have to believe in supernatural events, or they would not be Christians. God, angels, demons, are all supernatural beings.
          I was under the impression preterists claimed Satan was bound. Why would Satan be bound and the other demons be free to cause havoc? Wouldn't that be like locking up Hitler and leaving the rest of the Nazis free?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Darfius View Post
            The names Jannes and Jambres (Greek: Ἰάννης, Ἰαμβρῆς; Iannēs, Iambrēs) appear in 2 Timothy[2] in the New Testament. Origen says that there was an apocryphal book called The Book of Jannes and Jambres, containing details of their exploits, and that Paul the Apostle was quoting from it. This book, known as The Apocryphon of Jannes and Jambres the magicians, exists in some Greek fragments present in the Chester Beatty Papyri No XVI (which has been edited and translated by Albert Pietersma[3]), and in an extensive Ethiopic fragment which was discovered in 2014.[4] It was also probably known to the Qumran community, since the Qumran community refers to one of the magicians by the name of Jannes.[5] The Testament of Solomon also refers to the magicians by the name of Jannes and Jambres.

            Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannes_and_Jambres
            Thanks.
            Scripture Verse:

            But as to the rest of it, I don't know if they really turned the staffs into snakes or if it was just a slight of hand trick they used. And then Aaron did the real thing.

            © Copyright Original Source



            Scripture explicitly states that the staffs "became a snake", so why would you "not know"?
            The bible often just describes things from the point of view of the observer. It could have appeared that the staff turned into a snake. Or it could be that the staff really did. Satan likes to counterfeit miracles.
            Either way, I believe Aaron's staff did turn into a snake.



            I was under the impression preterists claimed Satan was bound. Why would Satan be bound and the other demons be free to cause havoc? Wouldn't that be like locking up Hitler and leaving the rest of the Nazis free?
            I am not a preterist. But even if they did believe that, they still believe in God and his miracles, so they believe in the supernatural. At least the orthodox preterists I know.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              The bible often just describes things from the point of view of the observer. It could have appeared that the staff turned into a snake. Or it could be that the staff really did. Satan likes to counterfeit miracles.
              Either way, I believe Aaron's staff did turn into a snake.
              Can you give an example of the Bible "describing things from the point of view of the observer" without making it clear it is doing so? Again, the text is giving a description of what happened and even says the magicians did the "same thing" with their staffs as Aaron did with his.

              I am not a preterist. But even if they did believe that, they still believe in God and his miracles, so they believe in the supernatural. At least the orthodox preterists I know.
              They believe that there are Satanically empowered magicians potentially serving the most powerful men in the world (as Pharaoh was), but they are still preterists? That strikes me as very poor thinking. Usually thinking that poor is a result of the desire of the heart to avoid uncomfortable truths. Sin makes us fools.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                Can you give an example of the Bible "describing things from the point of view of the observer" without making it clear it is doing so? Again, the text is giving a description of what happened and even says the magicians did the "same thing" with their staffs as Aaron did with his.
                sure. When it says that the sun stopped in Joshua 10. Since the sun isn't moving around the Earth in the first place, it was probably the Earth that stood still and it was just described as the sun and moon standing still.



                They believe that there are Satanically empowered magicians potentially serving the most powerful men in the world (as Pharaoh was), but they are still preterists? That strikes me as very poor thinking. Usually thinking that poor is a result of the desire of the heart to avoid uncomfortable truths. Sin makes us fools.
                Do you understand what preterists are? They just have a different view of the end times than you or I do. It doesn't mean they don't believe in the supernatural or the miracles in the bible.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                  Can you give an example of the Bible "describing things from the point of view of the observer" without making it clear it is doing so?
                  Scripture is full of such examples. Four corners of the earth, four winds, uttermost parts of the earth, etc. How far is the east from the west? about 12,500 miles?

                  As for the magicians, regardless of how many there were or what their names were, they could very much be like magicians of today, able to do parlor tricks and sleight of hand. How much time did they have to prepare their tricks? Maybe they used actual snakes drugged or in chilled conditions so as to appear temporarily immobile and disguised as sticks. Just guessing. Do supernatural events occur these days? Possibly. Do "Christians" perform parlor tricks to make it appears like supernatural events or miracles? Do they ever!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    sure. When it says that the sun stopped in Joshua 10. Since the sun isn't moving around the Earth in the first place, it was probably the Earth that stood still and it was just described as the sun and moon standing still.
                    Thank you, but the sun did stand still in the sky. That was an objective event, whatever the explanation. The key words are "in the sky". That is not a statement about whether the sun itself stopped moving, but that it did indeed stop moving "in the sky" (that is, from the perspective of someone on earth).

                    Similarly, the magicians' staffs also turned into snakes when they did "the same" as Aaron, whether the source of their ability was the same as his or not.


                    Do you understand what preterists are? They just have a different view of the end times than you or I do. It doesn't mean they don't believe in the supernatural or the miracles in the bible.
                    Yes, I understand what preterists are better than they do. There is no "just" when it comes to the truth. It alone can set us free, as stated by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. He is the ultimate embodiment of the truth, so if one does not love the truth, that one certainly cannot love Him.

                    Obviously the presence of world power serving Satanic magicians would be better explained by prophecy being fulfilled in the future rather than Satan having already been bound. This is just one of many reasons preterists are wicked, stupid people leading themselves and others into hell as the Lord Jesus accused the sign [prophecy] ignoring Pharisees of doing.

                    Scripture Verse: Matthew 16

                    1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven.

                    2 He replied, “When evening comes, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,’ 3 and in the morning, ‘Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Jesus then left them and went away.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Scripture Verse: Matthew 23

                    13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

                    15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Faber View Post
                      Scripture is full of such examples. Four corners of the earth, four winds, uttermost parts of the earth, etc. How far is the east from the west? about 12,500 miles?
                      What does poetic language have to do with narrative viewpoint?

                      Scripture Verse: Matthew 24

                      30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Will you now accuse the Lord Jesus of being ignorant of the shape of the world He created?

                      As for the magicians, regardless of how many there were or what their names were, they could very much be like magicians of today, able to do parlor tricks and sleight of hand. How much time did they have to prepare their tricks? Maybe they used actual snakes drugged or in chilled conditions so as to appear temporarily immobile and disguised as sticks. Just guessing. Do supernatural events occur these days? Possibly. Do "Christians" perform parlor tricks to make it appears like supernatural events or miracles? Do they ever!!!
                      Why are you feigning ignorance as to what the names of the magicians were? I have shown that they were given explicitly in Scripture. How is this anything but willful dishonesty? There is also no need for speculation as to how they could have "appeared" to do what they did, since Scripture is explicit about the fact that they did "the same thing" Aaron did. Feel free to speculate about how they actually did what Scripture says they actually did, though I am well aware that will not be as easy for you to handwave away.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Daffius View Post
                        Will you now accuse the Lord Jesus of being ignorant of the shape of the world He created?
                        You kidding me? Everybody knew in Jesus's time what shape the world was. It was even calculated by Eratosthenes two centuries before Jesus with unusual accuracy for his time. Then he went on to measure the size of the moon and the distance between the earth and moon.

                        Originally posted by Daffius View Post
                        Feel free to speculate about how they actually did what Scripture says they actually did, though I am well aware that will not be as easy for you to handwave away.
                        Magic tricks are easy. Just use illusions or visual tricks to deceive people. It doesn't take anything supernatural to fool people.
                        Especially MORONS!
                        As for feigning ignorance of their names, or how many of them there were: I got no problem believing that Paul quoted the Targum, Talmud or other non-Biblical literature,

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Fibber View Post
                          You kidding me? Everybody knew in Jesus's time what shape the world was. It was even calculated by Eratosthenes two centuries before Jesus with unusual accuracy for his time. Then he went on to measure the size of the moon and the distance between the earth and moon.
                          Right, so the suggestion you were making that when the Bible used poetic language it displayed an ignorance of facts indicative of the first person narration by said ignorant author is patently false. Thank you for admitting that in as unclear and evasive a way as possible.

                          Magic tricks are easy. Just use illusions or visual tricks to deceive people. It doesn't take anything supernatural to fool people.
                          Especially MORONS!
                          As for feigning ignorance of their names, or how many of them there were: I got no problem believing that Paul quoted the Targum, Talmud or other non-Biblical literature,
                          I'm glad to hear you have "no problem" accepting Scripture in that regard, but you still seem to be struggling with the fact that it clearly states that the magicians performed an act which was the same as Aaron's. They changed a staff into a snake. There is no evidence that they would be incapable of doing the same thing today, therefore preterism is incorrect. Have a great day.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Whatever...
                            Where does this guy come up with these ideas???

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Faber View Post
                              Whatever...
                              Where does this guy come up with these ideas???
                              "Whatever" sums up most modern "Christians". And they're about to find out really soon what God does with the lukewarm.

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