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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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Dispensationalism - Ancient and Modern

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  • eschaton
    replied
    There are three problems I see when reading the early church fathers in a premillennial way.

    1 - Any reference to a thousand years is understood as referring to Revelation 20. It must be remembered that the church fathers believed in 6000 years corresponding to the six days of creation with the seventh indicating the rest of God (Heb 4:3-6) and even an eighth indicating the new creation. The basis for the 6000 years is found in Genesis 2:17, Psalm 90, and 2 Peter 3:8. Modern premillennialism relegates the seventh millennium to Revelation 20:2-7. It is likely that the church fathers such as Justin (Dialogue With Trypho, 81) identified the seventh day/millennium with the New Creation of Revelation 21 and Isa 65:17-66. Justin said the thousand years was related to Gen 2:17 where Adam died spiritually on the day he was disobedient and yet lived 930 years. Irenaeus (V.XXIV.2), Philo, and the book of Jubilees (4:30-31) also speak of this.

    What is the meaning of the expression, "Ye shall surely die?". (Gen 2:17, 5:5) The death of the good is the beginning of another life; for life is a twofold thing, one life being in the body, corruptible; the other without the body, incorruptible. Therefore one wicked man surely dies the death, who while still breathing and among the living is in reality long since buried, so as to retain in himself no single spark of real life, which is perfect virtue. But a good man, who deserves so high a title, does not surely die, but has his life prolonged, and so attains to an eternal end. (cf. John 6:41, 11:26) Q&A on Genesis I
    The concept of a thousand years as spiritual life is similar to the teaching in amillennialism.

    2 - The temple is usually understood as the literal temple in the earthly Jerusalem. Paul speaks of the temple of God four times, 1 Cor 3:16-17, 1 Cor 6:19, 2 Cor 6:16, and 2 Thes 2:4. If Paul is consistent he is talking about the spiritual church of God, not a literal temple. This indicates that the temple in Jerusalem is the heavenly Jerusalem (Gal 4:26, Heb 12:22).

    Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person (1 Cor 3:17), distinctly called it the temple of God. Irenaeus, V.25.2
    3 - The kingdom in millennialism is understood as an earthly millennial kingdom. Irenaeus (III.XI.8) speaks of the heavenly kingdom (cf. Col 1:17, Acts 14:22, Rom 14:17, Luke 17:21).

    Leave a comment:


  • eschaton
    replied
    ...For the prophet neither speaks concerning a day which includes the space of twelve hours, nor of a year the length of which is twelve months. For even they themselves acknowledge that the prophets have very often expressed themselves in parables and allegories, and [are] not [to be understood] according to the mere sound of the words. (Isa 61:2, Luke 4:19)
    2. That, then, was called the day of retribution on which the Lord will render to every one according to his works—that is, the judgment. The acceptable year of the Lord, again, is this present time, in which those who believe Him are called by Him, and become acceptable to God—that is, the whole time from His advent onwards to the consummation [of all things], during which He acquires to Himself as fruits [of the scheme of mercy] those who are saved. II.XXII.1-2
    Irenaeus rejects the idea of literal interpretation when describing the time from the first advent to the consummation of all things (1 Pet 4:7). He doesn’t include a literal earthly reign of a thousand years. What he describes sounds more like amillennialism.

    ...since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds...For the cherubim, too, were four-faced, and their faces were images of the dispensation of the Son of God... For the living creatures are quadriform, and the Gospel is quadriform, as is also the course followed by the Lord. For this reason were four principal (καθολικαί) covenants given to the human race: one, prior to the deluge, under Adam; the second, that after the deluge, under Noah; the third, the giving of the law, under Moses; the fourth, that which renovates man, and sums up all things in itself by means of the Gospel, raising and bearing men upon its wings into the heavenly kingdom. III.XI.8
    Irenaeus presents an argument for why there are only four written gospels and associates the cherubim with the course followed by the Lord. That would be His birth, passion, resurrection, and ascension. He also describes the four covenants. This gives a narrative until the consummation. It doesn’t include an earthly, literal kingdom of a thousand years.
    Last edited by eschaton; 08-25-2020, 02:27 PM. Reason: quote

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  • Faber
    replied
    Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
    Which guy?
    the dragon

    Or maybe both.

    Leave a comment:


  • DesertBerean
    replied
    Originally posted by Faber View Post
    Somebody help me! That's two times this month I actually agreed with something this guy said!
    Which guy?

    Leave a comment:


  • eschaton
    replied
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Different people can piece together references from the scripture of many different religions throughout history to justify ones own beliefs, and it could be possible all their conclusions could be false.

    The book Hal Lindsey, 'The Late Great Planet Earth' 1970' is one of the worst possible references for anything.
    Premillennialism refers to Bible prophecy as a jigsaw puzzle. Hal Lindsey isn't unique in that.

    http://https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1974/02/the-prophetic-jigsaw

    I think the important thing to note is the reason for error. Irenaeus notes it is the destruction of the narrative. Following the correct nattative lessens the chance for error.
    Last edited by eschaton; 08-23-2020, 06:50 PM. Reason: link

    Leave a comment:


  • Faber
    replied
    Somebody help me! That's two times this month I actually agreed with something this guy said!

    Leave a comment:


  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Different people can piece together references from the scripture of many different religions throughout history to justify ones own beliefs, and it could be possible all their conclusions could be false.

    The book Hal Lindsey, 'The Late Great Planet Earth' 1970' is one of the worst possible references for anything.

    Leave a comment:


  • eschaton
    started a topic Dispensationalism - Ancient and Modern

    Dispensationalism - Ancient and Modern

    The prophecies can be pieced together to make a coherent picture, even though the pieces are scattered in small bits throughout the Old and New Testaments.
    Hal Lindsey, 'The Late Great Planet Earth' 1970 (Chapter 4)
    Then, again, collecting a set of expressions and names scattered here and there [in Scripture], they twist them, as we have already said, from a natural to a non-natural sense.
    Irenaeus, Heresies, I.IX.4
    Some of the earliest church fathers such as Irenaeus and Justin Martyr are considered to be premillennial. If they were it was a very different kind of premillennialism than found today. Premillennialism today, and for that matter, most of the modern hermeneutics, are based on literalism. This is different than the church fathers.

    Truly has Justin remarked: That before the Lord’s appearance Satan never dared to blaspheme God, inasmuch as he did not yet know his own sentence, because it was contained in parables and allegories; Irenaeus, V.XXVI.2
    Irenaeus uses an example from the way the heretics use the Greek poet Homer. The problem with the heretics interpretation is that they jumble up the narrative to make their own. The heretics narrative is destroyed if the proper order is followed.

    But if he takes them and restores each of them to its proper position, he at once destroys the narrative in question. I.IX.4
    Darby conceives of dispensations relating exclusively to the divine government of the earth and thus the church is not associated with any dispensations.

    1 Innocence (pre-Fall)
    2 Conscience (Fall–Noah)
    3 Government (Noah–Abraham)
    4 Promise (Abraham–Moses)
    5 Mosaic Law (Moses–Christ)
    6 Grace (current age)
    7 Millennial Kingdom (1,000-year earthly reign of Christ, yet to come)

    Irenaeus also spoke of the dispensations of God.

    1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to gather all things in one,” and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus I.X.1
    Irenaeus associates the dispensations with the advents and elements of the Gospel. He doesn’t explain as redemption history.

    the dispensations of God, and
    the advents, and
    the birth from a virgin, and
    the passion, and
    the resurrection from the dead, and
    the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and
    His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to gather all things in one,” and to raise up anew

    The Old Testament prophecies were not understood literally.

    For every prophecy, before its fulfillment, is to men [full of] enigmas and ambiguities. But when the time has arrived, and the prediction has come to pass, then the prophecies have a clear and certain exposition. And for this reason, indeed, when at this present time the law is read to the Jews, it is like a fable; (2 Cor 3:15-16) for they do not possess the explanation of all things pertaining to the advent of the Son of God, which took place in human nature; but when it is read by the Christians, it is a treasure, hid indeed in a field, but brought to light by the cross of Christ, and explained, both enriching the understanding of men, and showing forth the wisdom of God and declaring His dispensations with regard to man, and forming the kingdom of Christ beforehand, and preaching by anticipation the inheritance of the holy Jerusalem (Heb 12:22), and proclaiming beforehand that the man who loves God shall arrive at such excellency as even to see God, and hear His word, and from the hearing of His discourse be glorified to such an extent, that others cannot behold the glory of his countenance, as was said by Daniel: “Those who do understand, shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and many of the righteous as the stars for ever and ever.” (Dan 12:3) IV.XXVI.1
    Irenaeus advocates spiritual interpretation of scripture, as opposed to literal. He even sees the fulfillment of Daniel 12 in the first advent. The modern mind sees premillennialism by filtering the teachings of the church fathers through the same literal lens that it filters the Bible through.
    Last edited by eschaton; 08-22-2020, 12:48 PM. Reason: quote

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