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Was Titus the Man of Sin

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  • #46
    Originally posted by classical_hero View Post
    But Daniels 70th week is 7 years long, not 3-4 years long. Plus if the events of Revelation have happened, why is the Millennium treated so differently to the rest of the book, since it is not treated as being historical, since we are well over 1000 years since the events in AD70.
    Amillennialists and postmillennialists do not take the 1,000 years literally.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #47
      Revelation 12 describes a woman hiding in the wilderness for 3.5 years.
      Revelation 13 describes a beast oppressing the saints for 3.5 years.

      Should these two periods be added consecutively, or do they occur at the same time?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Grahamcracker
        Well, this one I think I can answer. The Jewish War that Josephus talked about lasted how long? From 66-70 AD, depending upon when you start your calendar timing--3 to 4 years fits.
        To answer this point, you are arguably overlooking the details of the passage. It says the outer portion of the temple was given to the gentiles (which I interpreted to mean being occupied by gentiles for the 3.5 years). Even though the city was besieged, the temple was not literally occupied for any significant portion of time.

        If the passage is just trying to say that the outer temple is "given" to the gentiles in the sense that it will eventually be destroyed, then I also don't see why God would specify the outer portion of the temple. The entire temple was destroyed, not just the outer portion.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by grahamcracker View Post
          Well, this one I think I can answer. The Jewish War that Josephus talked about lasted how long? From 66-70 AD, depending upon when you start your calendar timing--3 to 4 years fits.
          The surrounding of Jerusalem occurred in 68. And that was just the city of Jerusalem not the Temple court access, which occurred even later. The best route a preterist can take here is to just argue that the prophecy was general or that the number wasn't supposed to be literal but symbolic, not to try and make the prophecy fit history. The latter is futile for your cause.
          "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

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          • #50
            Originally posted by seanD View Post
            The surrounding of Jerusalem occurred in 68. And that was just the city of Jerusalem not the Temple court access, which occurred even later. The best route a preterist can take here is to just argue that the prophecy was general or that the number wasn't supposed to be literal but symbolic, not to try and make the prophecy fit history. The latter is futile for your cause.
            Is it any less futile for the futurist? We can construct any kind of timeline for the future we want to, but there is no way to confirm it until it happens. Trying to make a literal future timeline seems like idle speculation at best, and false prophecy at worst. Remember William Miller and the "Great Disappoint," or even Harold Camping.
            The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

            https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

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            • #51
              Originally posted by eschaton View Post
              Is it any less futile for the futurist? We can construct any kind of timeline for the future we want to, but there is no way to confirm it until it happens. Trying to make a literal future timeline seems like idle speculation at best, and false prophecy at worst. Remember William Miller and the "Great Disappoint," or even Harold Camping.
              Agreed, setting a specific date of the parousia is futile according to the Lord.
              "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

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              • #52
                The 'Man of Sin'?

                It was Herod; it was Caiaphas. It was Eleazar b. Simon and John of Giscala.

                It was Pilot, Caligula, and Nero.

                The sun and moon went dark in those days, because kings and authorities loved lawlessness, and were ensnared by madness.

                I tend to think Paul probably had in mind Eleazar, though.
                Last edited by tsuro_no_Sugomori; 07-16-2014, 09:37 PM.

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                • #53
                  Three questions
                  Mat 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Q1“Tell us, when will these things be? Q2 And what will be the sign of Your coming, and Q3 of the end of the age?”
                  Three Answers
                  Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 “And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows

                  Mat 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 “And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 “Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 “And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 “But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

                  Mat 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 “Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 “And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 “And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 “And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. 23 "Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 “See, I have told you beforehand.

                  1 - Fall of the second temple, sacking of Jerusalem and the dispersion ... 2 - Current ... 3 - Future ... but each flows into the next in seamless progression.
                  Last edited by tabibito; 07-15-2014, 02:26 PM.
                  sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by grahamcracker View Post
                    We know Titus became emperor. And one web site says he learned of his father's death while in Jerusalem during the Judean campaign. That should be historically verifiable, without question, one way or other.
                    I think you might be confusing the death of Vespasian with the death of Nero. Vespasian was emperor from 69 to 79, until well after the Judean campaign. I don't know offhand where Titus was when he learned of his father's death but I'm pretty sure he was in Rome. Anyway, what you describe sounds more like the death of Nero or perhaps the death of Otho. Josephus says that Vespasian is declared emperor by the legions at the death of Otho. I think that his plans to become Caesar actually began at the death of Nero.

                    There is a very good book called "The Long Year" that describes the year 69AD and the 4 emperors that vied for power after Nero (Galba/Otho/Vitellius/Vespasian). Only Vespasian survives the year. The other three either commit suicide or are murdered.
                    Last edited by AlphaBravo; 12-22-2014, 04:23 PM.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by grahamcracker View Post
                      ...surely there is some reliable source material besides implication or secondary commentary. Can anyone help me?
                      As far as i know the best primary sources covering Titus are Suetonius, Josephus, Cassius Dio, and Tacitus. I have read the first three (sadly much of the last two are lost) but haven't gotten much into Tacitus yet. I too would be interested in any additional sources.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                        I think Titus was actually a relatively good guy.
                        I too tend to view Titus and Vespasian in a pretty positive light as Caesars go and I hold the work of Josephus to be a work of integrity. But just for arguments sake let me pose a bizzare scenario.

                        We are in the year 4070, Germany won WWII, the extant histories of Adolf Hitler were written by German historians in 2040 (100 years later) who were generally favorable to the regime as a whole. The most detailed personal account of Hitler was written by a Jew who was captured and accompanied Hitler through much of the war, was adopted into Hitler's family and who's written work was sponsored by the family.

                        I don't think it takes much effort to see that we would have a very different opinion of Hitler than we do now. There would be no testimony from Nuremberg trials or photographs of piles of dead bodies.

                        It is recorded that more than a million Jews died in the siege on Jerusalem. The conditions of the siege were such that some ate their own children. It is not hard to imagine that many of those caught in the crossfire were Jewish Christians who had not heeded the warning of Mt 24. Josephus records that over 100,000 captives from Jerusalem/Judea were sold into slavery by Titus after the siege and many thousands of these were butchered in the games that Titus held in Caesarea in honor of his brother's birthday in 70/71AD. There were so many Jewish slaves that they had zero market value. Titus went on to construct the Flavian amphitheater (Colosseum) where countless more Christians were slaughtered. Before his death he also completed the temple to Vespasian and Titus, deified. It is said that on his deathbed he repented of one great transgression. In his otherwise exemplary life it does not take much imagination to guess what this might have been.

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                        • #57
                          The man of sin that Paul spoke about appeared 14 years after he wrote 2 Thess. He was Eleazar Ben Simon one of the radical terrorists who took over the temple and desecrated it for about three years.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Cooter View Post
                            The man of sin that Paul spoke about appeared 14 years after he wrote 2 Thess. He was Eleazar Ben Simon one of the radical terrorists who took over the temple and desecrated it for about three years.
                            How_bout_no.jpg
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            Stephen R. Donaldson

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                            • #59
                              Easy to say no - but tell us why he is not the man of sin - the son of perdition. He is the only one who fits history. Unless of course you are a futurist then everything has to be futuristic. In this case the answer is always no to every historical fulfillment that is shown in the annuals of history.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Cooter View Post
                                Easy to say no - but tell us why he is not the man of sin - the son of perdition. He is the only one who fits history. Unless of course you are a futurist then everything has to be futuristic. In this case the answer is always no to every historical fulfillment that is shown in the annuals of history.
                                How about reading my first post in this thread...
                                That's what
                                - She

                                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                                Stephen R. Donaldson

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