Originally posted by rogue06
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Eschatology 201 Guidelines
This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostI'm right there with you Sean. As I've seen futurist arguments, I've become more and more convinced I was right to abandon it. And speaking of hostile...the OP wonders why no one actually engages him anymore. If you believe as Darfius does that unless you're a futurist, you're going to hell, then you will also be mostly ignored. The old adage of "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care" is IMO very true. There are preterists answers to a lot of challenges I see posted here, that I find sound and true to God's word, but, if you believe the Blood of Jesus Christ has washed away your sins and you are living for Him in everything you do, does it really matter if when He returns there will be a Tribulation? If there is, and you're truly a believer, that will not change. But if when He returns, that's it, I pity all those who thought they would recognize the times and would repent when actually, there will no longer be time because it's over, who will then be the false witness that gets the blame?
The last of what you said was nervous gibberish, but obviously I care about you or I would leave you to die in your sins. What you really mean to say is "Darfius, tickle my ears like the pastor I pay to be my therapist or I am not interested." Which speaks for itself, don't it?
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou know what happens when people assume, yes?
There are two events described in 1 Thess; the end of chapter 4 is a different literary unit than the beginning of chapter 5, raising a different subject (note that 4:9, 4:13, and 5:1 use identical language in introducing their new subject). The beginning of chapter 5 is describing the same event as the OD, yes. What does that have to do with your ignorance?
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostFair or not, my impression of the currently fashionable evangelical scholar, Michael Heiser, is that he does the same thing as Darfius is doing in this thread - correctly sheds light on the background of some of what is referenced in the Bible; in this case, the Greek background of Tartarus, but then uses that to then smuggle in the assumption that the Bible then affirms as true what is said about these other things. The same thing could be said about 1 Enoch; people notice that it is cited in Jude, but then extrapolate from this that everything else said in that book must be true. For starters, no serious scholar that I'm aware of thinks that 1 Enoch was actually written by Enoch, but rather that it was written several millennia after Genesis takes place.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostAssuming I believe you (and that's a real stretch for me to do because it's just totally illogical to believe that about that passage), what makes you think Jesus was using symbolism there? The OD is not at all like Rev, which is arguably rife with at least some metaphor and symbolism. There's no indication anywhere in the entire discourse he was using coded words or symbolism as opposed to telling it straight forward and just how things would happen. Why should I believe he all of a sudden switches to symbolism only at that moment?
You also have another problem, because if everything Jesus says there is literal truth, "truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened" did not happen and Jesus is a liar. So regardless of whether you are a preterist or not, Matthew 24 must contain SOME non-literal truth."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostLikewise, on Mars' Hill Paul quotes the Greek poet Aratus' Phaenomena in Acts 17:28, Menander's Thais in I Corinthians 15:33 and, in Titus 1:12, "One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own" (identified as Epimenides by Clement of Alexandria in his Stromata). Further when Paul refers to kicking against the pricks or goads in Acts 26:14 that term comes from Aeschylus' Agamemnon and FWIU, according to Origen, his references to Jannes & Jambres (2 Timothy 3:8) is from an apocryphal book, according to Origen.
Obviously that doesn't mean Christians should therefore consider Phaenomena, Thais, Agamemnon and whichever of Epimenides' works are therefore divinely inspired
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI'll be interested in discussing things with you when you become more interested in attempting to understand my position (if only to thereby refute it) than you are in being an unmitigated ass. All you're managing to convince me of here is that I want no part in your conception of eternity.
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Originally posted by Darfius View PostI don't "wonder why people won't engage me". I said it's because I'm right, they're wrong and they wish to admit neither, because they have no love for the truth. And it is impossible to be "living for Him in everything you do" and maintain a belief in lies when the truth is pointed out. You are deluding yourself. And in the time of great delusion, deluding yourself doesn't make your future look too bright. Repent.
The last of what you said was nervous gibberish, but obviously I care about you or I would leave you to die in your sins. What you really mean to say is "Darfius, tickle my ears like the pastor I pay to be my therapist or I am not interested." Which speaks for itself, don't it?"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostIs this a joke? Do you think the elect are gonna be literally riding around on the "four winds" when Jesus calls them?
You also have another problem, because if everything Jesus says there is literal truth, "truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened" did not happen and Jesus is a liar. So regardless of whether you are a preterist or not, Matthew 24 must contain SOME non-literal truth.
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostNo, they think you're looney tunes and an jackass, that's why they don't engage you. As for maintaining a belief in lies...physician heal thyself. You need to stop sowing heresy and embrace the truth and repent...or at least realize that endtimes isn't the end all an be all of being a Christ follower.
They perish because they "refused to love the truth." Sounds like loving the truth is the "be all and end all to me." Doesn't sound like you can walk around with your head up your butt while claiming with your lips that you love Christ, accept the mark because "these aren't the endtimes" and still be saved. That sounds like a delusion to me.
What could be more "end all and be all" than this scenario? What Scripture says isn't aligning with your hysterical claims to the contrary. Which is probably why you and the rest of the mouth running brigade never reference or quote Scripture. But you love God and His word, right?
What it speaks of is Darfius is terrible at mind reading and of course knows nothing of my life. Nervous? No brother, the spittle on your chin is you trying to convince yourself your right and hope we will confirm it...But, your wrong. You need to look in the mirror and realize that you're a jackass moron who doesn't know his rear from a hole in the ground and actually examine with an open mind instead of only studying just enough to try to disprove something.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostThe "this generation" has been covered in other threads."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostGive me the cliffs' notes version (also Jesus says quite a bit more than just "this generation" to make it clear who He is talking to).
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...his-generation
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Originally posted by seanD View PostBoth chapters are talking about the same event (as you know there were no chapters and verses in the original manuscript). 1 Thess 5 is reiterating on the event from 4. In 4 -- "this will happen." In 5 -- "but know one knows exactly what day this event will happen." It's the same event.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Darfius View PostMore "wahhhhhhhhhh, I'll repent when you beg me just right" nonsense. Entitled American.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Darfius View PostWanting the "cliffs' notes version" rather than the whole truth is why you're a preterist. Do the legwork.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...his-generation"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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