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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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Special place in hell (for preterists)

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Darfius View Post
    About your nonsense that Peter wrote "to Greeks", the churches in Asia Minor--a Roman province--were a mixture of Roman, Greek, Persian, Anatolian, etc. peoples. Rather, these different tribes all shared a common "Hellenistic" culture, similar to how many nations today have adopted much of "American" culture while still maintaining their own religious, national and cultural traditions. So that's a nonstarter of an argument.
    "Hellenistic" = "Greek".

    Fail better.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #17
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      I'm sure the passages in question have been examined by preterists.

      Not that I recall. Revelation is highly symbolic throughout, and the wildest and most imaginative interpretive efforts I've seen are those that attempt to take the text literally.

      I am not a preterist because I've spent oodles of time studying it and am thus heavily invested in maintaining it. I was raised on dispensational pre-trib pre-mill futurism. I am a preterist because the preterist interpretations I've seen generally make far more sense in context of the texts and their times than futurism does. I've done rather more reading on the ANE and early church in general than on preterism, and preterism is no more than an interesting side topic for me. I'm sure I will get to my other books on preterism eventually, but I'm stuck at home with a toddler for the foreseeable future, and don't get much reading done these days.
      I think a truly literal interpretation of Rev 9 (that they're actually supernatural creatures as described) seems to be the less complicated way to approach it, depending on whether one believes such a supernatural world actually exists, because then no amount of wild guessing is required. It's definitely spectacular, and that's the only real problem us moderns would have with it, but based on other such odd supernatural creatures described from scripture, it's not that farfetched.
      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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      • #18
        I am pre trib. I do not argue end time ideas with anyone beyond people who I know well.

        I do not however write misleading thread topics that suggest preterists are going to hell. Just...not done. Neither is insulting people at the starting gate. Not going to help your cause.
        Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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        • #19
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          I was responding forthrightly to a serious question. The end times are a fascinating topic, but I consider it more profitable to be ready to meet my Maker at any time than to worry how exactly the end of the world will occur. After all, it is rather more likely that I will die before that happens - and if it does, I'm signed by the seal of the cross, so I'm good. .

          OBP is right. Far better to be sure one is in right standing with Jesus than spending time tearing down people for their beliefs.
          Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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          • #20
            Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
            I am pre trib. I do not argue end time ideas with anyone beyond people who I know well.

            I do not however write misleading thread topics that suggest preterists are going to hell. Just...not done. Neither is insulting people at the starting gate. Not going to help your cause.
            Well, that is one way to interpret the title, the other is that the thread is a question for preterists. Given Darfius' hostility towards preterism I don't rule out the former.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
              I am pre trib. I do not argue end time ideas with anyone beyond people who I know well.

              I do not however write misleading thread topics that suggest preterists are going to hell. Just...not done. Neither is insulting people at the starting gate. Not going to help your cause.
              I agree with the bottom part, but debating and arguing with preterists helped me to see how strong futurism position really was. I'm the kind of guy open to any position as long as it makes at least some sense, and I want to be sure the position I hold is sound. Arguing with preterists in this forum and gauging how sound that position is has strengthened by belief in futurism far more than it was when I first got on this forum. And at the time this was a good place for me to do it. The preterists here kept me on my toes because they were a lot more hostile and persistent (especially my encounter with Dee) than they are now.
              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                Well, that is one way to interpret the title, the other is that the thread is a question for preterists. Given Darfius' hostility towards preterism I don't rule out the former.
                It's a pun that looks like the one to rattle cages/grab attention but really means the other.
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  I was responding forthrightly to a serious question. The end times are a fascinating topic, but I consider it more profitable to be ready to meet my Maker at any time than to worry how exactly the end of the world will occur. After all, it is rather more likely that I will die before that happens - and if it does, I'm signed by the seal of the cross, so I'm good.
                  Yes, this response has become popular since I began arguing futurism here with gusto again. "I don't have the ability to defend my arguments, Darfius, but wait(!), I don't even need to because I'm always ready to meet my Maker, whether I believe and act on the truth or not." Fraid not, Piglet.

                  Scripture Verse: John 4

                  23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  Scripture Verse: Matthew 15


                  7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
                  8
                  “‘These people honor me with their lips,
                  but their hearts are far from me.
                  9
                  They worship me in vain;
                  their teachings are merely human rules.’

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  Scripture Verse: Matthew 7

                  21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  I did a Bible search for "signed by the seal of the cross" and came up emptyhanded. Mind citing the chapter and verse for me? Or is that another one of those "holy" phrases that sounds nice but is not the sort of worship the Father seeks because while you honor Him with your lips, your heart is far from Him?

                  You might want to consider remedial classes in mind-reading - heck, reading too while you're at it. Maybe you missed it in your zeal to be as jackass as possible, but the "traditions of my fathers" is dispensational futurism. Fail better.
                  I meant that your preterism is merely a half-hearted belief that is reactionary to "the traditions of your fathers". You did not actually seek out the truth either way but were content with secondhand information. Because you are a decent enough person to wish to identify as Christian, but not good enough to actually be one. You "have a form of godliness, but deny its power."

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    "Hellenistic" = "Greek".

                    Fail better.
                    Hellenization, however, had its limitations. For example, areas of southern Syria that were affected by Greek culture entailed mostly Seleucid urban centres, where Greek was commonly spoken. The countryside, on the other hand, was largely unaffected, with most of its inhabitants speaking Syriac and clinging to their native traditions.[12]

                    Archaeological evidence alone gives only an incomplete picture of Hellenization; it is often not possible to state with certainty whether particular archaeological findings belonged to Greeks, Hellenized indigenous peoples, indigenous people who simply owned Greek-style objects or some combination of these groups.


                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenization

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seanD View Post
                      I agree with the bottom part, but debating and arguing with preterists helped me to see how strong futurism position really was. I'm the kind of guy open to any position as long as it makes at least some sense, and I want to be sure the position I hold is sound. Arguing with preterists in this forum and gauging how sound that position is has strengthened by belief in futurism far more than it was when I first got on this forum. And at the time this was a good place for me to do it. The preterists here kept me on my toes because they were a lot more hostile and persistent (especially my encounter with Dee) than they are now.
                      I'm right there with you Sean. As I've seen futurist arguments, I've become more and more convinced I was right to abandon it. And speaking of hostile...the OP wonders why no one actually engages him anymore. If you believe as Darfius does that unless you're a futurist, you're going to hell, then you will also be mostly ignored. The old adage of "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care" is IMO very true. There are preterists answers to a lot of challenges I see posted here, that I find sound and true to God's word, but, if you believe the Blood of Jesus Christ has washed away your sins and you are living for Him in everything you do, does it really matter if when He returns there will be a Tribulation? If there is, and you're truly a believer, that will not change. But if when He returns, that's it, I pity all those who thought they would recognize the times and would repent when actually, there will no longer be time because it's over, who will then be the false witness that gets the blame?
                      "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                      "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                        I'm right there with you Sean. As I've seen futurist arguments, I've become more and more convinced I was right to abandon it. And speaking of hostile...the OP wonders why no one actually engages him anymore. If you believe as Darfius does that unless you're a futurist, you're going to hell, then you will also be mostly ignored. The old adage of "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care" is IMO very true. There are preterists answers to a lot of challenges I see posted here, that I find sound and true to God's word, but, if you believe the Blood of Jesus Christ has washed away your sins and you are living for Him in everything you do, does it really matter if when He returns there will be a Tribulation? If there is, and you're truly a believer, that will not change. But if when He returns, that's it, I pity all those who thought they would recognize the times and would repent when actually, there will no longer be time because it's over, who will then be the false witness that gets the blame?
                        You can ignore me all you want, bro. No skin off my nose. It's a free country (so far)
                        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          You can ignore me all you want, bro. No skin off my nose. It's a free country (so far)
                          I didn't ignore you, I posted to you so....

                          Are you saying you agree that believers in preterism are going to hell as Darfius said?
                          "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                          "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                            I didn't ignore you, I posted to you so....

                            Are you saying you agree that believers in preterism are going to hell as Darfius said?
                            Is that what I said in the post you initially responded to?
                            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                              It's a pun that looks like the one to rattle cages/grab attention but really means the other.
                              That is another option I hadn't thought of.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                                I agree with the bottom part, but debating and arguing with preterists helped me to see how strong futurism position really was. I'm the kind of guy open to any position as long as it makes at least some sense, and I want to be sure the position I hold is sound. Arguing with preterists in this forum and gauging how sound that position is has strengthened by belief in futurism far more than it was when I first got on this forum. And at the time this was a good place for me to do it. The preterists here kept me on my toes because they were a lot more hostile and persistent (especially my encounter with Dee) than they are now.
                                I do discuss the various views of the end times but not if it's going to end up with condemnation of each other. Which is what Darfius is suggesting with his thread title. It's clear he was out to rattle a few cage bars and not in a good way.
                                Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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