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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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This probably won't be the mark of the Beast

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  • #61
    You guys seem to be entertaining theories hundreds of years after the fact.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by seanD View Post
      You guys seem to be entertaining theories hundreds of years after the fact.
      Truth does not change. If you know the basis for Catholic doctrines, you can see the Antichrist Papacy still sits in the Temple of God in at least two ways, and possibly three. Chances are, you believe those doctrines too and don't know it.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Dave L View Post

        Truth does not change. If you know the basis for Catholic doctrines, you can see the Antichrist Papacy still sits in the Temple of God in at least two ways, and possibly three. Chances are, you believe those doctrines too and don't know it.
        Whatever floats your boat.
        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by seanD View Post

          Whatever floats your boat.
          You need to make sure you are not under his influence.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Dave L View Post

            You need to make sure you are not under his influence.
            Not sure what you mean by "his," but I base my eschatological analysis on the earliest Christian sources, not sources from hundreds of years later. Jesuits is the 16th century. Darby is the 19th century. Neither of those have anything to do with Christianity of the first two centuries.

            But, like I said, if that's what you want to believe, more power to you.
            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by seanD View Post

              Not sure what you mean by "his," but I base my eschatological analysis on the earliest Christian sources, not sources from hundreds of years later. Jesuits is the 16th century. Darby is the 19th century. Neither of those have anything to do with Christianity of the first two centuries.

              But, like I said, if that's what you want to believe, more power to you.
              Are you Premillennial? The early creeds condemn this as heresy and promote Amillennialism. BTW, Jesus taught Amillennialism against the Pharisee's premillennialism.

              Comment


              • #67
                Ditching Premillennialism did free me up from time wasting Eschatological prediction stuff. I am now an Amillenialist.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Sherman View Post
                  Ditching Premillennialism did free me up from time wasting Eschatological prediction stuff. I am now an Amillenialist.
                  And so now you're free to "waste your time" promoting Amillennialism in an Eschatological forum. Awesome.
                  "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    About a year late to the party.

                    Coming ‘COVID-19 passports’ – mark of the Beast?

                    What does the COVID-19 vaccine has to do with Satan? For some who believe in biblical prophecy — everything.
                    Fear of the COVID-19 vaccine has joined the ranks of biometric palm scanners and biometric digital photographs — used to authenticate a person’s identity — among those skeptics.
                    The lifesaving vaccine is suspected of being the “mark of the beast” by some, just as biometric technology has come under similar suspicion for years.
                    The phrase, and its connection to the number “666,” comes from the biblical Book of Revelation and are often considered references to Satan or the Antichrist:

                    (...)

                    If the COVID-19 vaccine’s possible connection to Bible prophecy seems farfetched, consider that a local prophecy scholar already has had the issue come up several times during the pandemic.

                    The Rev. Mark Hitchcock, senior pastor of Faith Bible Church in Edmond, hosts a weekly virtual presentation called “Marking the Times,” in which people may ask him questions and he’s had several queries whether the vaccine is somehow the mark of the beast that’s connected to Satan.

                    Hitchcock said the short answer is no.

                    “When people talk about taking the mark of the beast (Antichrist), they will literally be taking his mark or his name upon them. It will be a pledge of allegiance to him or a pledge of loyalty,” he said. “No one is going to take the mark of the beast accidentally. They are going to be willfully, knowingly taking it.“
                    I generally agree with everything he says up to the point I quoted; everything after, as far as his eschatological interpretation, not so much.

                    This article argues the danger of the slippery slope, or a gradual move in that direction and perhaps acclimating us to eventually accepting it, which I also agree with.




                    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      See, here's the problem...

                      Marjorie Taylor Greene blasts COVID-19 vaccine passports: 'Biden's mark of the beast'

                      I knew this was going to happen -- it was a given -- but when you have a high profile figure like her, whom the Dems already view as a terrorist and the worse human being they've ever known, this complicates eschatology and makes it that much harder for Christians in the long run, because when the mark actually is revealed, it's just going to be met with that much more ridicule and scorn by the unbelieving world (this would happen anyway, but Greene just makes it that much worse).

                      How much greater would it have been if she had instead used her political platform and argued the fact it violates our civil liberties, and get that conversation going, which likely would have been met with a whole lot more folks on both sides of the political aisles. But, no, she just has to go there and make it more nutty than it has to be.
                      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Follow-up prediction Part 2:

                        The debate is over. Unless you've been under a rock, we know covid digital passports are a thing now and without question will be implemented in society in the near future. Some countries have already implemented it, some countries are in the process of designing it and will eventually implement it immediately and abruptly, while other countries, like the US (for obvious legal reasons), will likely go about it at a much more gradual pace after serious and heated national debate. Only exception to the latter is if we have another fierce wave pandemic that "unexpectedly" disrupts our society again (not totally ruling that out).

                        Here's my next prediction to where this will all lead.

                        In the US, I think it will first be implemented by the travel and airline companies (who got massive government funds -- keep that in mind), then, aside from "unexpected" and unmitigating circumstances, it will gradually progress over time as other businesses adopt the technology. Biden and his admin will publicly feign like they're steering clear from it for obvious reasons (while collaborating with industries behind the scenes).

                        It will be more than just a card, because these are already being issued and, as expected, there's a forgery black market. It will probably be a phone app at first, and here is where the inevitable issues pop up. First of all, not everyone has a phone, obviously. Secondly, even with a phone there are endless issues -- i.e. phone gets stolen, lost, they forget it at home, battery goes dead, phone sharing between relatives or friends, etc. There will also undoubtedly be a black market for hacks you can download that will give fraudulent data. This is where it will start to get creepy. Once the public is acclimated, the solution to these numerous issues will end up with the only inevitable solution -- something more personal and invasive that will lead to...

                        Either an RFID chip or some other biometric technology that can be embedded into the skin, unseen. I tend to lean towards the latter because RFID technology is old tech and sort of outdated; I think they have far more advanced methods for this. This solves all problems previously mentioned.

                        Assuming this is where it eventually leads, and I firmly believe it will so this is officially my second prediction -- the question is: will this be the Beast system? This time you can disregard the title of the thread because I honestly can't give an answer. At the very least, this will be an extreme move in that direction. I will say that if the third temple in Israel is being built or built by the time this comes to fruition -- look out.

                        Theoretical scenario.

                        I left this for last because this is more of an aside of how this may all play out that I'm less sure of than everything else I've just described above, which would go something like this: There will be another lockdown and slew of mandate restrictions (this time initiated federally) as a result of a national covid surge. This will allow the process I described above to move much faster. Businesses are barely surviving as it is, but this will be the ultimate culling, leaving a significantly smaller field of surviving companies. The companies that are left will get incentives from government (i.e. bail-out money) if they adopt the passport technology (in the name of "public safety and health" of course).

                        This way, rather than government forcing this process directly, they can steer it indirectly with subtle coercion. Any business is free to ignore the technology, but won't get government funds if they do. If lockdowns are severe enough, the businesses that don't take the funds will just go bankrupt (or there may be a weird type of two-tier socioeconomic system that will be divided across partisan lines in different counties and states?).

                        Nonetheless, whether this moves fast or slow, eventually we'll be left with a crony corporatism/technocratic environment where you must show your digital code to move freely throughout society; all the while government publicly asserting it has nothing to do with it (maybe even feigning a bit of fake verbal opposition and outrage against it). Even though I'm not as sure it play out exactly like this, this just seems like the smartest way for government to go about this implementation (and I'm thinking devil's advocate here; obviously I'm not endorsing this).
                        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          Follow-up prediction Part 2:

                          The debate is over. Unless you've been under a rock, we know covid digital passports are a thing now and without question will be implemented in society in the near future. Some countries have already implemented it, some countries are in the process of designing it and will eventually implement it immediately and abruptly, while other countries, like the US (for obvious legal reasons), will likely go about it at a much more gradual pace after serious and heated national debate. Only exception to the latter is if we have another fierce wave pandemic that "unexpectedly" disrupts our society again (not totally ruling that out).

                          Here's my next prediction to where this will all lead.

                          In the US, I think it will first be implemented by the travel and airline companies (who got massive government funds -- keep that in mind), then, aside from "unexpected" and unmitigating circumstances, it will gradually progress over time as other businesses adopt the technology. Biden and his admin will publicly feign like they're steering clear from it for obvious reasons (while collaborating with industries behind the scenes).

                          It will be more than just a card, because these are already being issued and, as expected, there's a forgery black market. It will probably be a phone app at first, and here is where the inevitable issues pop up. First of all, not everyone has a phone, obviously. Secondly, even with a phone there are endless issues -- i.e. phone gets stolen, lost, they forget it at home, battery goes dead, phone sharing between relatives or friends, etc. There will also undoubtedly be a black market for hacks you can download that will give fraudulent data. This is where it will start to get creepy. Once the public is acclimated, the solution to these numerous issues will end up with the only inevitable solution -- something more personal and invasive that will lead to...

                          Either an RFID chip or some other biometric technology that can be embedded into the skin, unseen. I tend to lean towards the latter because RFID technology is old tech and sort of outdated; I think they have far more advanced methods for this. This solves all problems previously mentioned.

                          Assuming this is where it eventually leads, and I firmly believe it will so this is officially my second prediction -- the question is: will this be the Beast system? This time you can disregard the title of the thread because I honestly can't give an answer. At the very least, this will be an extreme move in that direction. I will say that if the third temple in Israel is being built or built by the time this comes to fruition -- look out.

                          Theoretical scenario.

                          I left this for last because this is more of an aside of how this may all play out that I'm less sure of than everything else I've just described above, which would go something like this: There will be another lockdown and slew of mandate restrictions (this time initiated federally) as a result of a national covid surge. This will allow the process I described above to move much faster. Businesses are barely surviving as it is, but this will be the ultimate culling, leaving a significantly smaller field of surviving companies. The companies that are left will get incentives from government (i.e. bail-out money) if they adopt the passport technology (in the name of "public safety and health" of course).

                          This way, rather than government forcing this process directly, they can steer it indirectly with subtle coercion. Any business is free to ignore the technology, but won't get government funds if they do. If lockdowns are severe enough, the businesses that don't take the funds will just go bankrupt (or there may be a weird type of two-tier socioeconomic system that will be divided across partisan lines in different counties and states?).

                          Nonetheless, whether this moves fast or slow, eventually we'll be left with a crony corporatism/technocratic environment where you must show your digital code to move freely throughout society; all the while government publicly asserting it has nothing to do with it (maybe even feigning a bit of fake verbal opposition and outrage against it). Even though I'm not as sure it play out exactly like this, this just seems like the smartest way for government to go about this implementation (and I'm thinking devil's advocate here; obviously I'm not endorsing this).
                          My prediction? By the time they could even ramp up something like you predict, the whole thing will be over and the disease will either go extinct or become nothing more than getting a yearly flu shot.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                            My prediction? By the time they could even ramp up something like you predict, the whole thing will be over and the disease will either go extinct or become nothing more than getting a yearly flu shot.
                            I guess you're saying it's not plausible, but I'm not sure which part? The embedded verification or that we'll have to show passports to freely move around in society?

                            If it's the former, then I admit I'm going out on a limb there, so we'll see.

                            If it's the latter, it's already happening now. And the fact you argue we'll have annual covid shots is just further proof passports will become commonplace years from now.

                            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Birth of the two-tiered society...

                              Chicago restaurant owners hoping to ease concerns for those who may be apprehensive about dining out have a solution: a vaccinated only section.

                              Although the city is still int he bridge phase of its reopening plan, city guidance allows businesses to operate with no restrictions as long as only vaccinated people are allowed in that area.

                              Those will be in place at Moe’s Cantina this weekend, where a neon bracelet will be the key to a seat in the unrestricted vaccinated section of the restaurant. The unvaccinated section will continue to have distanced tables and partitions.

                              “We decided to divide, and you’re free to come on this side, go to the bar. You can be pre-pandemic,” said owner Sam Sanchez.

                              He said customers will have to show proof of their full vaccination to get a pink bracelet to relax in a seat or stool in the area with no restrictions.

                              “Just back to normal,” he said.
                              A "neon bracelet."

                              Originally posted by seanD View Post

                              It might be something as simple as a bracelet you wear with a digital code. In fact, that makes more sense to me, because then the hysterical folks out in public buying tons of toilet paper could recognize whether you're a "threat" or not.
                              This is only the beginning.
                              Last edited by seanD; 05-25-2021, 10:59 AM.
                              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                My workplace removed mask mandates for those who provided proof of vaccination through a specific HR portal. I've found that I'm basically the only person who is casually walking around this large building without a mask.

                                It does follow the logic of two sets of rules. I suspect some of the people still wearing them either don't feel bold enough to go against the grain, or may have underlying medical conditions (which isn't my business).
                                Last edited by KingsGambit; 05-26-2021, 09:34 AM.
                                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                                Comment

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