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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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This probably won't be the mark of the Beast

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  • #46
    Originally posted by seanD View Post
    I'm front running this before it happens because the situation seems pretty inevitable to me. This isn't any sort of prophecy or anything, I'm just using common sense, so I could always be wrong about the outcome.

    Judging by the reaction of the entire world to this current virus situation, and looking at how intrusive world governments have become to combat this situation (the severity of the virus itself is a moot point here -- the reaction is treating it as the end of the world), it's practically GUARANTEED that once a vaccine comes out, governments around the world are going to implement some sort of digital verification system that you've been immunized.

    And this verification system will likely be stored in a global database. The verification will be digital and will probably be an ap on your phone, some sort of ID card, or -- dare I say -- perhaps even a digital chip implant. It makes perfect sense, and here's why.

    Life can return to normal. Folks will be able to travel again, ride public transit, take flights, cross borders, go to concerts and sporting events without fear of spreading a virus. Though I have no doubt the masses will rush to get the vaccine by the millions once it's released, there are undoubtedly those that for whatever reason (whether religious or some other reason) will refuse to get it.

    I imagine huge political discussions and debates about this inevitable dilemma will occur -- whether it's legal or not to force folks to get it, and what legally can be done to enforce it.

    Folks that don't have verification will at first be very inconvenienced and shut out of society for the most part, and at first will be subjected to ridicule. But then they'll eventually been seen as a public health threat to the rest of the masses, maybe even dubbed a terrorist. It will almost be impossible not to get the vaccine and verification because you won't be able to function in society without it, and it might even pose grave danger of physical attack.

    I'm sure "Mark of the Beast" will be brought up in the discussions, if for no other reason, just as something to be ridiculed and scoffed at. In fact, I'm sure there are Christians that are going to freak out about it. However, I DO NOT believe this is going to be the mark of the Beast (even though I believe the timing is a bit alarming), and here's why.

    I don't believe the mark of the Beast will be something that tricks us into taking it. When you look at Revelation, it's pretty clear the Beast is worshipped worldwide. Taking the mark undoubtedly is connected to that worship somehow, which is why it's detrimental to your faith and salvation.

    In this case, you're just following a government mandate -- like getting a driver's license, SSN, or paying taxes -- with no religious implications or connotations, and has nothing to do with worship, thus I see no reason this will be detrimental to your faith anymore than following any other prior government mandate.

    I could be wrong though. Share your thoughts. I'd prefer to hear opinions from futurists, but all opinions are welcome.
    What do you think about many Protestant creeds and the Reformers thinking the Papacy was/is the Antichrist? And the mark is a submissive mindset towards him?

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Dave L View Post

      What do you think about many Protestant creeds and the Reformers thinking the Papacy was/is the Antichrist? And the mark is a submissive mindset towards him?
      I don't like to use the word "antichrist" because this is not specific enough. There are multiple personalities in the NT that will play a role in the end times. I firmly believe the pope will have some role, I just don't know exactly how, though I suspect Rev 13:11, but that's pure speculation. And I hold to a literal interpretation of Rev 13:16-18.
      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by seanD View Post

        I don't like to use the word "antichrist" because this is not specific enough. There are multiple personalities in the NT that will play a role in the end times. I firmly believe the pope will have some role, I just don't know exactly how, though I suspect Rev 13:11, but that's pure speculation. And I hold to a literal interpretation of Rev 13:16-18.
        So you disagree with Historic Protestantism and the Reformers?

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Dave L View Post

          So you disagree with Historic Protestantism and the Reformers?
          I'm not familiar with them holding that view, but if so, then yes. I rarely regard what the CF's had to say about end times. They were obviously limited by their time period to see the full scope of Rev and how the future would shape and make a lot of the things in that prophecy plausible in a literal sense.
          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by seanD View Post

            I'm not familiar with them holding that view, but if so, then yes. I rarely regard what the CF's had to say about end times. They were obviously limited by their time period to see the full scope of Rev and how the future would shape and make a lot of the things in that prophecy plausible in a literal sense.
            You need to study Church history. This is in most of the creeds from that era.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Dave L View Post

              You need to study Church history. This is in most of the creeds from that era.
              Which CF argued that?
              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by seanD View Post

                Which CF argued that?
                “The Antichrist and the Reformation”

                During the time of the Reformation and following, Christians in every Anabaptist, English-Baptist, Lutheran or Protestant and Reformed Church, believed the Papacy was the Antichrist. This fact remains embedded in the books and creeds of Christendom to this day. Several examples follow;

                From The Westminster Confession which also with some adjustments became the 1st and 2nd London Baptist Confessions.
                Chapter XXV
                Of the Church

                VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof. but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.
                And from the preface to the Canons of Dort;

                For this Church being by God’s mighty hand set free from the tyranny of the Romish Antichrist, & from the fearful idolatry of Popery.....
                Martin Luther declared, “We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist.” (Aug. 18, 1520). According to The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, by LeRoy Froom. Vol. 2., pg. 121.

                I shall briefly show that (Paul’s words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy.” According to Institutes of the Christian Religion, by John Calvin.

                John Knox concluded that the Papacy was “the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks.” The Zurich Letters, by John Knox, pg. 199.

                “Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons.” (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.)
                Works by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7.

                “the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vassals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to change times and laws; but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2).

                Roger Williams (1603-1683) (First Baptist Pastor in America):” The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, by Froom, Vol. 3, pg. 52.
                Cotton Mather (1663-1728) (Congregational Theologian): “The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church: and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them.” According to The Fall of Babylon by Cotton Mather in Froom’s book, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 3, pg. 113.

                John Wesley (1703-1791) (Methodist): Speaking of the Papacy, John Wesley wrote, “He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers... He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honour...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone.” Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms, by John Wesley, pg. 110.

                A Great Cloud of Witnesses: “Wycliffe, Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer; in the seventeenth century, Bunyan, the translators of the King James Bible and the men who published the Westminster and Baptist confessions of Faith; Sir Isaac Newton, Wesley, Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards; and more recently Spurgeon, Bishop J.C. Ryle and Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones; these men among countless others, all saw the office of the Papacy as the antichrist.” According to All Roads Lead to Rome, by Michael de Semlyen. Dorchestor House Publications, p. 205. 1991.

                Comment


                • #53
                  I am more inclined to think the papacy is antichrist with what is coming out of the vatican as of late.

                  Now to think a vaccine is the mark of the beast - that concept is just head bangingly stupid.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sherman View Post
                    I am more inclined to think the papacy is antichrist with what is coming out of the vatican as of late.

                    Now to think a vaccine is the mark of the beast - that concept is just head bangingly stupid.
                    The problem with your first argument is what antichrist means? As I said, there are a number of personalities (individuals? beings?) in the NT that play a role in the end times. Whom are you referring to when you say antichrist? The Man of Lawlessness? The Beast? The False prophet? The Harlot?

                    In regard to your second post, yeah, I'm not entirely sure, but I doubt this is the mark, even if digital immunization verification becomes an eventual requirement to function in society and it becomes widespread. But I can see a whole lot of people resisting it for fear that it is.
                    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by seanD View Post

                      The problem with your first argument is what antichrist means? As I said, there are a number of personalities (individuals? beings?) in the NT that play a role in the end times. Whom are you referring to when you say antichrist? The Man of Lawlessness? The Beast? The False prophet? The Harlot?

                      In regard to your second post, yeah, I'm not entirely sure, but I doubt this is the mark, even if digital immunization verification becomes an eventual requirement to function in society and it becomes widespread. But I can see a whole lot of people resisting it for fear that it is.
                      The one Antichrist we speak of in Paul's Man of Sin = Antichrist by his profile. “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” 2 Thessalonians 2:3–4 (KJV 1900)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                        The one Antichrist we speak of in Paul's Man of Sin = Antichrist by his profile. “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” 2 Thessalonians 2:3–4 (KJV 1900)
                        True, but Revelation isn't clear who this is, though we might imagine it's the Beast since this is the one being worshiped, but it's still not clear.
                        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by seanD View Post

                          True, but Revelation isn't clear who this is, though we might imagine it's the Beast since this is the one being worshiped, but it's still not clear.
                          Revelation is about Nero and Rome. And later about the Papacy who takes Rome's place. Most cannot see it because of the Jesuit lies about a future Antichrist.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                            Revelation is about Nero and Rome. And later about the Papacy who takes Rome's place. Most cannot see it because of the Jesuit lies about a future Antichrist.
                            I actually hold to this view. Futurism and much of the modern eschatology started with Darby. It didn't exist prior to him.
                            Last edited by Sherman; 12-29-2020, 02:51 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Sherman View Post

                              I actually hold to this view. Futurism and much of the modern eschatology started with Darby. It didn't exist prior to him.
                              Depends on what you mean by futurism, but I highly doubt this is true, nor could you prove such a thing. Papias, one of the earliest CFs, if not the earliest, was a premil. The didache taught a coming "world deceiver" and they apparently didn't think it was Nero since the work most likely postdates Nero.
                              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Sherman View Post

                                I actually hold to this view. Futurism and much of the modern eschatology started with Darby. It didn't exist prior to him.
                                The Jesuits presented futurism to deceive Protestants into looking for an Antichrist in the distant future instead of the Papacy. The Plymouth Brethren built Dispensationalism around it. You can google it or I can provide documentation. But if you are familiar with Catholic doctrines, you can clearly see the Papal Antichrist seated in the Temple of God (the church) more than ever today.

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