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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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Generation Y and Z Confirms Futurism is true

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  • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
    Well the good news for you futurist is that we're only 60% of the way to "...preaching the Gospel to the whole world before the end will come." (Matt 24:14)

    https://joshuaproject.net/resources/...everyone_heard says:

    So how many of the approximately 17,400 ethnic people groups are considered unreached i.e. less than 2% Christ-follower and less than 5% Professing Christian? The latest estimates suggest that approximately 7,400 people groups are considered unreached. That means over 40% of the world’s people groups have no indigenous community of believing Christians able to evangelize the rest of their people group. Over 42% of the world’s population live in these over 7,400 people groups.


    https://globalfrontiermissions.org/g...at-commission/ says:

    Unreached People GroupsIt is estimated that of the 7.75 billion people alive in the world today, 3.22 billion of them live in unreached people groups with little or no access to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. According to Joshua Project, there are approximately 17,400 unique people groups in the world with 7,000+ of them considered unreached (over 41% of the world’s population!). The vast majority (85%) of these least reached groups exist in the 10/40 window and less than 10% of missionary work is done among these people.
    So, at least we know the end isn't coming real soon!
    "The end" probably should be clarified. I believe Jesus interprets "the end" as the Tribulation, and Matthew 24:14 makes that pretty clear. He says there is a time called the Beginning of Sorrows (which I firmly believe we're in right now) that's a precursor. The Beginning of Sorrows is a time where terrible and disturbing events accumulate (including persecution of the church), causing worldwide trepidation, and though it's bad, it's not "the end," meaning the Tribulation hasn't started yet. When Jesus says "see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet," I interpret that as "Cheer up saints, yes it's bad, but you haven't seen anything yet." When the Tribulation happens, they'll be no doubt to us that this is it.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seanD View Post
      "The end" probably should be clarified. I believe Jesus interprets "the end" as the Tribulation, and Matthew 24:14 makes that pretty clear. He says there is a time called the Beginning of Sorrows (which I firmly believe we're in right now) that's a precursor. The Beginning of Sorrows is a time where terrible and disturbing events accumulate (including persecution of the church), causing worldwide trepidation, and though it's bad, it's not "the end," meaning the Tribulation hasn't started yet. When Jesus says "see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet," I interpret that as "Cheer up saints, yes it's bad, but you haven't seen anything yet." When the Tribulation happens, they'll be no doubt to us that this is it.
      So you believe there's a separate "beginning of sorrows" that is not part of or the start of the Tribulation? And you gave OBP a hard time about deviation from standard Preterist beliefs? That's not a common belief in my experience...but, I could be wrong. I haven't been a futurist in over 10 years so...

      It took over 2000 years for us to get to 60%. Do you think the other 40% will gotten to in the next few years? Is so, how do you think that will happen?
      "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

      "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
        I have a hard time believing the world is evolving towards the better. There just seems too much evidence to the contray.
        Have you studied much "real" history? Things were very brutal at the time of what Partial Preterists believe was the Tribulation...and IMO, they were pretty brutal world wide until this century.

        ETA: I think things have gotten quite a bit better in the last 50 years.
        Last edited by Littlejoe; 07-08-2020, 01:59 PM.
        "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

        "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
          So you believe there's a separate "beginning of sorrows" that is not part of or the start of the Tribulation? And you gave OBP a hard time about deviation from standard Preterist beliefs? That's not a common belief in my experience...but, I could be wrong. I haven't been a futurist in over 10 years so...

          It took over 2000 years for us to get to 60%. Do you think the other 40% will gotten to in the next few years? Is so, how do you think that will happen?
          Why would we think that any human's perception of the percentage of people reached with the gospel is accurate? Only God knows who has and has not, for sure.

          And trying to stick a date on His return is impossible. And anti-scriptural.

          I am living as if Christ's return is imminent. As we are instructed to be doing in scripture. It may or may not be in our lifetime, but I know it will be when God's timing demands it.


          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by mossrose View Post
            Why would we think that any human's perception of the percentage of people reached with the gospel is accurate? Only God knows who has and has not, for sure.
            Surely you don't think that there's no way to at least get some sort of estimate of the work ahead of us in fulfilling the Great Commission? How do you know who to target if you don't know who has heard and who has not?


            And trying to stick a date on His return is impossible. And anti-scriptural.
            Who is that directed at? When did I suggest anything remotely like a date? I read SeanD's point to be the "Beginnings of Sorrows" has started or is close to starting...and that period is closely related to the actual start of the big event of "The Tribulation". I'm asking how long that period is supposed to last before the actual Tribulation starts?


            I am living as if Christ's return is imminent. As we are instructed to be doing in scripture. It may or may not be in our lifetime, but I know it will be when God's timing demands it.
            As any Christian should be...but surely, living as if your life may be required of you unexpectedly and living your life as if Christ's return is imminent are functionally the same...are they not?
            "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

            "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
              So you believe there's a separate "beginning of sorrows" that is not part of or the start of the Tribulation? And you gave OBP a hard time about deviation from standard Preterist beliefs? That's not a common belief in my experience...but, I could be wrong. I haven't been a futurist in over 10 years so...

              It took over 2000 years for us to get to 60%. Do you think the other 40% will gotten to in the next few years? Is so, how do you think that will happen?
              I honestly don't see how anyone could read the OD and not come to that conclusion. Jesus literally says "Beginning of Sorrows" that he describes as a time of trouble -- wars, civil unrest, famines, pestilences, etc. -- before the Tribulation. He distinguishes this time from the actual Tribulation (Matthew 24:21). I honestly don't think he could have been any clearer. He then gives a benchmark for the start of the Tribulation -- something, an event, happens in Israel that starts the Tribulation that is much worse than we just saw previous.

              As far as preaching the gospel to the world, I don't see how anyone could accurately quantify such a thing. There's never been a time in history that the gospel has been spread throughout the world as it is now. How could you know for sure which specific indigenous communities have or have not heard about it? What if there are communities that have heard about it but rejected it? How could anyone accurately assess that?
              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                I honestly don't see how anyone could read the OD and not come to that conclusion. Jesus literally says "Beginning of Sorrows" that he describes as a time of trouble -- wars, civil unrest, famines, pestilences, etc. -- before the Tribulation. He distinguishes this time from the actual Tribulation (Matthew 24:21). I honestly don't think he could have been any clearer. He then gives a benchmark for the start of the Tribulation -- something, an event, happens in Israel that starts the Tribulation.
                I've heard that to mean the beginning of the Tribulation in contrast to the "the end" to mean the end of the tribulation.

                As far as preaching the gospel to the world, I don't see how anyone could accurately quantify such a thing. There's never been a time in history that the gospel has been spread throughout the world as it is now. How could you know for sure which specific indigenous communities have or have not heard about it? What if there are communities that have heard about it but rejected it? How could anyone accurately assess that?
                Again, how do you determine who to try to reach if you don't have a clue about who has been reached. Read the articles, they make valid points in assessing who has and has not heard the Gospel.
                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                  Surely you don't think that there's no way to at least get some sort of estimate of the work ahead of us in fulfilling the Great Commission? How do you know who to target if you don't know who has heard and who has not?
                  You target everybody within the sphere of your influence.


                  Who is that directed at? When did I suggest anything remotely like a date? I read SeanD's point to be the "Beginnings of Sorrows" has started or is close to starting...and that period is closely related to the actual start of the big event of "The Tribulation". I'm asking how long that period is supposed to last before the actual Tribulation starts?
                  Wasn't directed at you specifically, darlin'. Just a general comment on the 60-40% thingy.


                  As any Christian should be...but surely, living as if your life may be required of you unexpectedly and living your life as if Christ's return is imminent are functionally the same...are they not?
                  Yes. And not worrying about what somebody says about the percentage of the world that's been reached by the gospel. I just don't think anything like that is an accurate representation of what any human could possibly know.


                  Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                    I've heard that to mean the beginning of the Tribulation in contrast to the "the end" to mean the end of the tribulation.

                    Again, how do you determine who to try to reach if you don't have a clue about who has been reached. Read the articles, they make valid points in assessing who has and has not heard the Gospel.
                    I don't see how to look at Matthew 24:21-22 in contrast to Matthew 24:6-14 as part of the same period. Unless you assume there is a stage of the Tribulation that isn't as bad as the later stage? To me Jesus seems to be describing a period that is a precursor -- a time that is bad that precedes a time that it is worse than anything in history. The benchmark that separates the two periods is something that occurs in Israel.

                    I still don't see how you can quantify whether every community has or hasn't heard about it at least in glancing (especially considering the awareness of western culture throughout the world). We're certainly in an age that "the gospel shall be preached in all the world as a witness" is certainly possible, but that doesn't guarantee its acceptance by any one individual or community that hears about it.
                    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                      *crickets*

                      Man, that's quite a change from all the scoffing that went on in the beginning. Guess things don't look so funny anymore.
                      Not sure what response is needed to anecdotal evidence.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                      • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        Not sure what response is needed to anecdotal evidence.
                        What anecdotal evidence?
                        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                        Comment


                        • Anyway, back to the topic.

                          Intersectionality: The new socioreligious experience of the millennial youth. It's more than just a political movement; it's similar to a religion (only non-theist for the most part, though there are theists getting mixed up in it), and it's a religion that is wholly anti-Christ and against all things fundamental to Christianity.

                          Case in point. Imagine the hostility one would face preaching about Christ to these unruly mobs tearing down statues or even just on a university campus today.

                          Though a similar youth movement may have occurred during the 60s -- where intersectional politics intermingled with a spiritual type of New Ageism -- the counter culture during that time faced resistance from society and the state, whereas now both the state and corporations not only don't resist, but give it a platform or just outright sanction it, and even purge or silence resistance against it. Also, consider this new millennial movement is occurring at a time conventional religious belief is alarmingly waning in the west.

                          This is really good article about the subject by Intelligencer...

                          “Intersectionality” is the latest academic craze sweeping the American academy. On the surface, it’s a recent neo-Marxist theory that argues that social oppression does not simply apply to single categories of identity — such as race, gender, sexual orientation, class, etc. — but to all of them in an interlocking system of hierarchy and power. At least, that’s my best attempt to define it briefly. But watching that video helps show how an otherwise challenging social theory can often operate in practice.
                          It is operating, in Orwell’s words, as a “smelly little orthodoxy,” and it manifests itself, it seems to me, almost as a religion. It posits a classic orthodoxy through which all of human experience is explained — and through which all speech must be filtered. Its version of original sin is the power of some identity groups over others. To overcome this sin, you need first to confess, i.e., “check your privilege,” and subsequently live your life and order your thoughts in a way that keeps this sin at bay. The sin goes so deep into your psyche, especially if you are white or male or straight, that a profound conversion is required.

                          Like the Puritanism once familiar in New England, intersectionality controls language and the very terms of discourse. It enforces manners. It has an idea of virtue — and is obsessed with upholding it. The saints are the most oppressed who nonetheless resist. The sinners are categorized in various ascending categories of demographic damnation, like something out of Dante. The only thing this religion lacks, of course, is salvation. Life is simply an interlocking drama of oppression and power and resistance, ending only in death. It’s Marx without the final total liberation.

                          It operates as a religion in one other critical dimension: If you happen to see the world in a different way, if you’re a liberal or libertarian or even, gasp, a conservative, if you believe that a university is a place where any idea, however loathsome, can be debated and refuted, you are not just wrong, you are immoral. If you think that arguments and ideas can have a life independent of “white supremacy,” you are complicit in evil. And you are not just complicit, your heresy is a direct threat to others, and therefore needs to be extinguished. You can’t reason with heresy. You have to ban it. It will contaminate others’ souls, and wound them irreparably.
                          Notice this article is three years old, yet this thing is as pervasive as ever across the country today, more than it was three years ago as far as I can tell. Another good article -- more up to date -- by Spectator that addresses the intermingling of this movement and the state as well as other religious institutions.

                          I would advise liberal Christians not jump on board this thing, or if you're already on board, get off now.


                          ETA: in case anyone hits a paywall on the Spectator article...

                          Protest’ often feels inadequate as a characterization for the public exhibitions that have erupted nationwide over the past several weeks. The term ‘protest’ carries a connotation of actions carried out in opposition to existing structures of power; hence, you ‘protest’ against forces that are arrayed against you (even if some municipal bureaucrat might have reluctantly granted you a permit). However, at least in many jurisdictions, events which were presented as ‘protests’ should more rightly be labeled as something along the lines of ‘state-backed demonstrations.’

                          For instance, in my otherwise sleepy hometown of Caldwell/West Caldwell, New Jersey, high-school students organized what turned out to be an astonishingly large protest march. Notably, the students accomplished this feat with the complete cooperation and participation of community authorities, against which the ‘the youth’ of a previous era presumably would have rebelled: parents, elected officials, school administrators, and even the police. It thus took on the appearance of an authorized civic gathering, almost like a Fourth of July celebration or a Christmas tree lighting. At the request of the students, a police detective sang the National Anthem, which made for a bizarre contrast with the legions of suburban white women in yoga pants kneeling with their fists raised defiantly to the sky. Incongruous as the ‘optics’ may be, these are, in a way, a new kind of ‘state-backed’ demonstration.

                          Of course, not every protest across the country has received such explicit state-backing. One feature of this ‘movement’ (if you can really call it that) is its astounding geographical reach, with demonstrations sprouting up even in the unlikeliest of regions. A map of recent protest-style actions in Pennsylvania shows events in even the most conservative, rural portions of the state, apparently without much in the way of resistance. So there is clearly something extremely novel about this phenomenon, and we’ve only begun to scratch the sociological surface.

                          Among the reasons why this still-amorphous ‘movement’ became so widely popular with such break-neck speed is perhaps because in the eyes of many, it transcended mere politics. Many so-called protests took on features highly reminiscent of religion: collective worship, public confession and requests for salvation, devotional poses and gestures, group prayer, the creation of a new pantheon of martyr figures to revere, and the adoption of liturgical rites and rituals.

                          Children and teenagers have been encouraged to publicly repent for their sins, with the ‘original sin’ being ‘white privilege’. In the small town of Schwenksville, Pennsylvania, I witnessed a white teenager named Frankie, wearing a sleekly designed ‘Black Lives Matter’ t-shirt, nervously stand before the assembled crowd (also overwhelmingly white) and proclaim, ‘Every single white person here today benefits from white privilege’ — to rousing applause. His solution for this alleged problem was heavily individualized: each white person in attendance must take the personal initiative ‘to learn’ about their privilege, and ‘ask themselves on a day by day basis how they can help’.

                          There is also an element of self-sacrifice exhibited at these events, as when last Friday in Chicago a white protest organizer announced, ‘White bodies are protecting POC bodies in this space.’ The idea is that should any conflict with police arise, activist whites are expected to place themselves in harm’s way as penitence to oppressed blacks. These whites could be observed engaging in such conduct at a separate Chicago march later that evening, which reached the heavily-boarded up Downtown area. As the crowd massed together and recited one of their liturgical chants, a cadre of whites stood in solemn confrontation with the CPD officers on hand. (As an aside, marches organized by white leftists are frequently less diverse than the police presence dispatched to trail the marchers — even in neighborhoods with large minority populations. Often omitted from discussions of the racial dimensions of modern policing is that urban departments in particular have become heavily diversified in recent years.)


                          You can tell these demonstrations enjoy state backing because they are commonly in direct violation of legal directives, still on the books, which prohibit mass gatherings due to the still-raging pandemic. Not only have the demonstrations been permitted, they have been avowedly endorsed and participated in by the very elected officials whose orders nominally prohibit them. For example, Executive Order 2020-38 decreed by Gov. J.B. Pritzker of Illinois, still currently in effect, bars ‘any gathering of more than 10 people’ statewide. But on June 19, Prizker himself took part in a Chicago rally of far greater than 10 people, at which no ‘social distancing’ was evident. Theoretically he could be subject to prosecution — for violating his own order. (Needless to say, there were no exemptions in the order for Juneteenth commemorations.)


                          The religious fervor underlying these demonstrations is undoubtedly a significant factor in why they have been granted license to supersede legal strictures relating to the pandemic. In some cases, more traditional religious leaders have offered personal legitimation. Cheryl Garbe, senior pastor at First Wayne Street United Methodist Church in Fort Wayne, Indiana described witnessing smoke-bombs go off in the parking lot of her church on the chaotic first night of rioting in the city. (Fort Wayne is one of many locales where riots unexpectedly broke out — much of the downtown area remains boarded up.) Subsequently, Garbe made the ‘very tough decision’ to install massive, unsightly wooden boards on the exterior of the church in order to protect the stained-glass windows. ‘I felt like if we did not protect the church and something happened, it would be another reason for people to criticize the movement,’ she said. ‘I felt like to have a church damaged could potentially be destructive to us addressing the issue of social justice.’

                          To diminish the eyesore, parishioners were encouraged to affix prayers written on Post-It notes onto the boarded up church exterior. (In-person services are still suspended, at least until next month, according to Garbe, who has since retired.) Sentiments expressed in the notes are mixed. One, clearly written by a child, reads: ‘Dear god please help this bad cop be good and please help George Flloyd [sic] have a good time in heaven.’ Another, this time clearly written by an adult, reads: ‘Stop this madness… Please pray for understanding and reconciliation and for everyone to be accountable for their actions… Amen’.
                          Last edited by seanD; 07-08-2020, 09:21 PM.
                          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                          Comment


                          • How pervasive the Intersectionality cult is becoming. You know you've got a pretty powerful phenomenon happening when its infection is reaching federal levels. Just to show how much I was actually underestimating this movement in the OP (bolded emphasis mine)....

                            Treasury Department

                            The Treasury Department held a training session telling employees that “virtually all White people contribute to racism” and demanding that white staff members “struggle to own their racism” and accept their “unconscious bias, White privilege, and White fragility.” The man who led the seminar, Howard Ross, has billed the federal government more than $5 million for diversity training over the past 15 years. Twitter thread here and original source documents here.


                            The National Credit Union Administration

                            The NCUA held a session for 8,900 employees arguing that America was “founded on racism” and “built on the blacks of people who were enslaved.” Twitter thread here and original source documents here.

                            Sandia National Laboratories

                            Last year, Sandia National Labs—which produces our nuclear arsenal—held a three-day reeducation camp for white males, teaching them how to deconstruct their “white male culture” and forcing them to write letters of apology to women and people of color. Whistleblowers from inside the labs tell me that critical race theory is now endangering our national security. Twitter thread here and original source documents here.

                            Argonne National Laboratories

                            Argonne National Labs hosts trainings calling on white lab employees to admit that they “benefit from racism” and atone for the “pain and anguish inflicted upon Black people.” Twitter thread here.


                            Department of Homeland Security

                            The Department of Homeland Security hosted a Training on “microaggressions, microinequities, and microassaults” where white employees were told that they had been “socialized into oppressor roles.” Twitter thread here and original source documents here.

                            FBI

                            The FBI’s Office of Diversity and Inclusion is hosting weekly “Intersectionality Workshops.” Twitter thread here.



                            Twitter source
                            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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