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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


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Generation Y and Z Confirms Futurism is true

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  • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    This is a very western-centric view. The church is exploding in the global South right now. :shrugs:
    That was your argument earlier in this thread and this was my reply...

    Originally posted by seanD View Post
    When it comes to the spread of Christianity, the western world is the one that matters, hands down. But technology is certainly not entirely absent everywhere but the west.

    Also note that Christianity may be thriving in other places (though I haven't looked at recent worldwide stats, so that's a pure guess), but it's under terrible, unprecedented physical persecution pretty much everywhere else in the underdeveloped world. How long do you think that will last?

    It looks as if Christianity in the west will experience a type of "soft persecution," or persecution via censorship until it eventually becomes physical. Though, considering how comfortable we've become with technology and how invasive it's become in our lives, the former may be enough to put tremendous strain on the church here in the west.
    Here in the west (specifically the US, since it's not as predominant in the EU) is the last place Christianity can flourish without the type of persecution its experiencing around the world. What I understand of preterism, there is no accommodation of a great falling away, and Christianity is supposed to spread and dominate the world, not spring up in pockets here and there under persecution pressure.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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    • Originally posted by seanD View Post
      I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it's related to eschatology and it is what it is, and a reality we should prepare for...

      Study Finds Many Young Americans ‘Don’t Care’ About God But Christian Leaders Are Hopeful

      (emphasis mine)


      Unless preterists expect a miraculous revival, is "falling away" part of that position?
      Maybe stop assuming that preterism is synonymous with postmillenialism?
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

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      • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Maybe stop assuming that preterism is synonymous with postmillenialism?
        I guess it's kind of hard not to when the rebuttal of preterists are always like this (and he made this same argument earlier)...

        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        This is a very western-centric view. The church is exploding in the global South right now. :shrugs:
        Is Christianity supposed to dominate somewhere else, perhaps an underdeveloped country, and then spur on a global revival from there? Or is KG not understanding the preterist position as well as you?
        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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        • Originally posted by seanD View Post
          Imagine what it will be like just in the next decade or two when the baby boom Generation dies off. Gen X retires. Then Gen Y and Z take over.

          They take over the House of Representatives. They take over the executive seat. They take over the supreme court. They take over city councils. They take over churches. They take over universities (though that's pretty much complete). Just imagine.

          Even if you don't believe biblical futurism is true, what do you think the world will be like when that happens? I believe that Christianity will pretty much be extinguished, maybe not worldwide, but definitely in the western world. But even if we assume Christianity is still around -- and that's a HUGE assumption -- it won't be anything like the Christianity of the bible or the last remnants of Christianity we know today.
          I don’t think such events would be a big deal - and certainly not a big deal of any eschatological importance. Whether in the US, or elsewhere, events go back and forth. That something precious to oneself fails miserably - perhaps for a long period - does not mean it is of any cosmic importance.

          The US can and eventually will go under, just as all empires have eventually gone under. That won’t mean the end of the world. All powers in the world go under, sooner or later. It is rather unlikely that any power now existing will last as long as Pharaonic Egypt, which lasted nearly 2,600 years. None of us has any way of knowing what any part of the world will be like in 10, 20, 50, 100, or 1,000 years. Neither does any of the self-anointed pseudo-prophets who set dates for the Second Coming, or who play Pin The Tail On The Antichrist.

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          • Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
            I don’t think such events would be a big deal - and certainly not a big deal of any eschatological importance. Whether in the US, or elsewhere, events go back and forth. That something precious to oneself fails miserably - perhaps for a long period - does not mean it is of any cosmic importance.

            The US can and eventually will go under, just as all empires have eventually gone under. That won’t mean the end of the world. All powers in the world go under, sooner or later. It is rather unlikely that any power now existing will last as long as Pharaonic Egypt, which lasted nearly 2,600 years. None of us has any way of knowing what any part of the world will be like in 10, 20, 50, 100, or 1,000 years. Neither does any of the self-anointed pseudo-prophets who set dates for the Second Coming, or who play Pin The Tail On The Antichrist.
            US has been the single greatest evangelistic country to the world in the last century, hands down. And the reason for this is because of the religious freedom it allows and its resources, both economical and technological. When Christianity dies in the US (or morphs into something resembling a false Christianity which seems more likely), the lights go out to the rest of the world. Sure, there will undoubtedly be church pockets here and there, but probably under immense persecution like we're seeing now, nothing like the freedom that was allowed here in the states. Unless one assumes there will be some miraculous Christian renaissance in the future, I'd say that's a pretty sound indicator of the "falling away" Paul was speaking of. It would be a falling away event so distinct that you couldn't mistake it no matter where you were in the world.

            None of us has any way of knowing what any part of the world will be like in 10, 20, 50, 100, or 1,000 years. Neither does any of the self-anointed pseudo-prophets who set dates for the Second Coming, or who play Pin The Tail On The Antichrist.
            Where did I set a date, or was this just a general gripe?
            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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            • Originally posted by seanD View Post
              So I thought I'd update this thread in light of what we've seen in the last year, which IMO has been a rapid progression of things that reflect what this thread is about. In fact, it's occurring faster than I thought.

              I think what's happening in America is significant since America is the last bastion of Christian influence in the world. I'm NOT saying it's the only source spreading Christianity globally, but that it's obviously a major regional source because of it's wealth and resources.

              Though I see pockets of Christianity spreading worldwide, I don't really see another country like America that, for the most part, has laws based on Christian principles and that has (or once had) a strong Christian base nationwide. The EU is becoming secular. Obviously China is secular. Russia is secular, though not as predominant as the Asian countries, and of course countries in the mid east are predominantly Muslim.

              So my honest question to preterists is this: How do you interpret all the sociopolitical movements happening in America right now, primarily the Social Justice leftist movement that has become pervasive for at least a couple decades, and that attacks either physically or tries to silence anything or anyone that expresses Christian values?

              What do you think this means in the context of preterism? What is the outcome? Will the church prevail with perhaps a revival in America and wipe out the leftist SJ movement? Or will American churches fall victim to the leftist movements, while another country rises in its place? Will Christianity spread out sparsely throughout the world instead?
              From what I’ve read & watched (as someone with very few US contacts) I’m not sure that the US can really be called Christian. It, or parts of its culture, is very vocal about the importance of being a Christian, and about the Bible - but that is not proof of anything much. It provides plenty of freedom for Christianity - but so does a lot of the world. The influence of non-Christian ideas is at least as prominent: it is not easy to treat dropping bombs as evidence of love of neighbour. All nominally or culturally Christian countries are (to put no more strongly) rather poor at putting Christian principles into practice. That is not by any means new.

              I think a lot of what passes for Christianity in the US is in reality paganism. For instance, lusting after “signs and wonders”. That shows an appetite for the marvellous - but that is entirely compatible with non-Christian religions. There is nothing inherently Christian about such things. Going by the Bible alone, is as good a way of having a pagan mind as any - the Bible by itself won’t depaganise anyone’s mind.

              I think SJWism is a development of possibilities in, and aspects of, the past of the societies in which it has grown up. It may be an unhealthy development, that misapplies the principles it grows from - but that position would have to be argued for. I don’t think SJWism came out of nowhere, and I don’t think it can be dismissed as a a growth entirely alien to the societies it now exists in. The PC movement generally STM to be a sort of non-theistic monasticism, expanded and made “thin and stretched” so as to be a rule for entire nations. Without its Christian vision to inform it, Christian monasticism goes bad - and loses its entire reason for being. That, but “thin and stretched” and secularised, is what PCism does for a nation.
              Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 06-08-2021, 06:18 PM.

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              • Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post

                From what I’ve read & watched (as someone with very few US contacts) I’m not sure that the US can really be called Christian. It, or parts of its culture, is very vocal about the importance of being a Christian, and about the Bible - but that is not proof of anything much. It provides plenty of freedom for Christianity - but so does a lot of the world. The influence of non-Christian ideas is at least as prominent: it is not easy to treat dropping bombs as evidence of love of neighbour. All nominally or culturally Christian countries are (to put no more strongly) rather poor at putting Christian principles into practice. That is not by any means new.

                I think a lot of what passes for Christianity in the US is in reality paganism. For instance, lusting after “signs and wonders”. That shows an appetite for the marvellous - but that is entirely compatible with non-Christian religions. There is nothing inherently Christian about such things. Going by the Bible alone, is as good a way of having a pagan mind as any - the Bible by itself won’t depaganise anyone’s mind.

                I think SJWism is a development of possibilities in, and aspects of, the past of the societies in which it has grown up. It may be an unhealthy development, that misapplies the principles it grows from - but that position would have to be argued for. I don’t think SJWism came out of nowhere, and I don’t think it can be dismissed as a a growth entirely alien to the societies it now exists in. The PC movement generally STM to be a sort of non-theistic monasticism, expanded and made “thin and stretched” so as to be a rule for entire nations. Without its Christian vision to inform it, Christian monasticism goes bad - and loses its entire reason for being. That, but “thin and stretched” and secularised, is what PCism does for a nation.
                To clarify, I don't mean the US government, since the US is for the most part secular. I'm referring to the general church in the states. The church in the US has had the most influence in the world in the last century because of its freedom and its resources, whether its missionaries, bible distribution, charity, preaching the gospel, etc. That's a fact. What country (that even allows religious freedom) can match that? The only country that might allow at least a semblance of religious freedom (though that isn't saying much) with the same amount of resource is Russia, but how influential has the church in Russia been to the rest of the world? What country is going to pick up that mantle when Christianity in the US dies out? No country. As I said before, pockets of Christianity will spring up here and there, and will struggle under persecution because they don't have the freedom nor the resources the US has, nor the support offered by the west.

                Everything else you said about SJWism, no offense, but I can't make out what you're talking about.
                "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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