Announcement

Collapse

Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Generation Y and Z Confirms Futurism is true

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    The idea that Christianity on earth would be extinguished is refuted by Matthew 16:18, when Jesus said "On this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
    Does that verse rule out the possibility that Christianity will be obliterated for a while, and then be revived ? I see nothing in that verse to encourage the Church to suppose it will never, and can never, die out. Nothing else on Earth is exempt from change, decay and extinction - and I cannot see anything in the Bible to suggest that the Church is exempt from that law. It is easy to think of the Church dying out - and then, after a lapse of centuries, a non-Christian discovering an old Bible, reading it, and (by the Grace of God) being converted to Christ. And from such a conversion, the Church might grow up all over again. Such an occurrence would ISTM fulfil those words of Christ perfectly adequately. If Christianity does not die, how can it be resurrected ? Death may be exactly what it needs.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
      Does that verse rule out the possibility that Christianity will be obliterated for a while, and then be revived ? I see nothing in that verse to encourage the Church to suppose it will never, and can never, die out. Nothing else on Earth is exempt from change, decay and extinction - and I cannot see anything in the Bible to suggest that the Church is exempt from that law. It is easy to think of the Church dying out - and then, after a lapse of centuries, a non-Christian discovering an old Bible, reading it, and (by the Grace of God) being converted to Christ. And from such a conversion, the Church might grow up all over again. Such an occurrence would ISTM fulfil those words of Christ perfectly adequately. If Christianity does not die, how can it be resurrected ? Death may be exactly what it needs.
      So, essentially you're a post-tribulation, perhaps even a post-millennial Catholic. Not unheard of, I suppose, but I imagine not common.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        So, essentially you're a post-tribulation, perhaps even a post-millennial Catholic. Not unheard of, I suppose, but I imagine not common.
        Probably not My understanding is that the CC is amillennial, but not atribulational. So, Earthly 1000-year Reign of Christ - no; but, Great Tribulation (of some unstated duration) - yes.

        My concern is the (mainly negative ?) one, not to go beyond what the text can plausibly be supposed to mean in context, that’s all. I don’t trust the idea that the Church - however understood - always prevails over all circumstances; partly because this seems to be bad history, & also because I see nothing in the text to rule out the possibility that the Church will prevail, not by winning every battle, but by being enabled to win the war; however bloodied and battered it may have become in the process. If Christ was not above suffering death, I see no reason why the Church cannot also suffer death; and be raised from death, even as He was.

        As long as the Church prevails from Christ’s POV, its historical condition, and appearance to men, is not too important. The thing to remember about St Matthew 16.13-19 is that its purpose is to reveal Christ - the Church, and St Peter, are not the passage’s main concern. To put things the other way round: a Church that may look very prosperous and strong and powerful, can appear these things, humanly speaking, and yet - from Christ’s POV - be very weak and feeble and wretched.

        Comment


        • Well, I think you'll get no argument that the Church will prevail from Christ's point of view. I don't take much stock in pre/post/ or amillennial views. What will happen will happen, regardless of Protestant or Catholic opinion. Are we heading towards a time of Tribulation, I think that's probably a reality, but Christ is in control, and the Father's Will will be done, regardless.

          Comment


          • So I thought I'd update this thread in light of what we've seen in the last year, which IMO has been a rapid progression of things that reflect what this thread is about. In fact, it's occurring faster than I thought.

            I think what's happening in America is significant since America is the last bastion of Christian influence in the world. I'm NOT saying it's the only source spreading Christianity globally, but that it's obviously a major regional source because of it's wealth and resources.

            Though I see pockets of Christianity spreading worldwide, I don't really see another country like America that, for the most part, has laws based on Christian principles and that has (or once had) a strong Christian base nationwide. The EU is becoming secular. Obviously China is secular. Russia is secular, though not as predominant as the Asian countries, and of course countries in the mid east are predominantly Muslim.

            So my honest question to preterists is this: How do you interpret all the sociopolitical movements happening in America right now, primarily the Social Justice leftist movement that has become pervasive for at least a couple decades, and that attacks either physically or tries to silence anything or anyone that expresses Christian values?

            What do you think this means in the context of preterism? What is the outcome? Will the church prevail with perhaps a revival in America and wipe out the leftist SJ movement? Or will American churches fall victim to the leftist movements, while another country rises in its place? Will Christianity spread out sparsely throughout the world instead?
            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seanD View Post
              So I thought I'd update this thread in light of what we've seen in the last year, which IMO has been a rapid progression of things that reflect what this thread is about. In fact, it's occurring faster than I thought.

              I think what's happening in America is significant since America is the last bastion of Christian influence in the world. I'm NOT saying it's the only source spreading Christianity globally, but that it's obviously a major regional source because of it's wealth and resources.

              Though I see pockets of Christianity spreading worldwide, I don't really see another country like America that, for the most part, has laws based on Christian principles and that has (or once had) a strong Christian base nationwide. The EU is becoming secular. Obviously China is secular. Russia is secular, though not as predominant as the Asian countries, and of course countries in the mid east are predominantly Muslim.

              So my honest question to preterists is this: How do you interpret all the sociopolitical movements happening in America right now, primarily the Social Justice leftist movement that has become pervasive for at least a couple decades, and that attacks either physically or tries to silence anything or anyone that expresses Christian values?

              What do you think this means in the context of preterism? What is the outcome? Will the church prevail with perhaps a revival in America and wipe out the leftist SJ movement? Or will American churches fall victim to the leftist movements, while another country rises in its place? Will Christianity spread out sparsely throughout the world instead?
              “A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, ‘You are mad; you are not like us.'” + St. Anthony the Great

              The amillenial position (most preterists) is more or less that the world will go to pot before the end. Not sure how this is supposed to be a major challenge to preterism.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                “A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, ‘You are mad; you are not like us.'” + St. Anthony the Great

                The amillenial position (most preterists) is more or less that the world will go to pot before the end. Not sure how this is supposed to be a major challenge to preterism.
                Most of the preterists I've dealt with give the impression that the world is evolving positively (they even include modernism and advanced technology in this context, which is odd to me) and that the gospel is spreading and growing as a sign that Christ's kingdom is reigning on the earth, thus showing that preterism is true and the gloom and doom doctrine of futurism is not true. I've read that on a number of preterist sites and I believe AP held to that position when I used to debate him here long ago. So I guess I was addressing those preterists that hold that particular view.
                "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                Comment


                • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  “A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, ‘You are mad; you are not like us.'” + St. Anthony the Great

                  The amillenial position (most preterists) is more or less that the world will go to pot before the end. Not sure how this is supposed to be a major challenge to preterism.
                  Originally posted by seanD View Post
                  Most of the preterists I've dealt with give the impression that the world is evolving positively (they even include modernism and advanced technology in this context, which is odd to me) and that the gospel is spreading and growing as a sign that Christ's kingdom is reigning on the earth, thus showing that preterism is true and the gloom and doom doctrine of futurism is not true. I've read that on a number of preterist sites and I believe AP held to that position when I used to debate him here long ago. So I guess I was addressing those preterists that hold that particular view.
                  To be more specific it's called Victorious Eschatology, and the views of this guy is not fringe, but pretty much the position I've heard every preterist argue that I've ever encountered. So the view you're presenting me is a preterist view I've never ever heard before...

                  "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                  Comment


                  • *crickets*

                    Man, that's quite a change from all the scoffing that went on in the beginning. Guess things don't look so funny anymore.
                    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                      Most of the preterists I've dealt with give the impression that the world is evolving positively (they even include modernism and advanced technology in this context, which is odd to me) and that the gospel is spreading and growing as a sign that Christ's kingdom is reigning on the earth, thus showing that preterism is true and the gloom and doom doctrine of futurism is not true. I've read that on a number of preterist sites and I believe AP held to that position when I used to debate him here long ago. So I guess I was addressing those preterists that hold that particular view.
                      I have a hard time believing the world is evolving towards the better. There just seems too much evidence to the contray.
                      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                        I have a hard time believing the world is evolving towards the better. There just seems too much evidence to the contray.
                        Yeah, I never bought into that even years and years ago when I first started confronting preterists here. In fact, that's one of the main issues that stuck out to me the most that preterism was just wrong. I know for a fact AP used that argument in his debates with me here. Another person I encountered here used that argument incessantly, but I forgot his name and can't find his threads (unfortunately, I suspect it was on the old tweb before it crashed so I can't even prove AP made those arguments). I believe Dee argued this too, but I'm not as certain of that. Again, I've never ever heard the position that things will get bad before Christ returns from any preterist I've ever encountered. So I suspect that's a fringe position, and it's perhaps a way to adapt to certain recent events.
                        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                          I have a hard time believing the world is evolving towards the better. There just seems too much evidence to the contray.
                          I wonder, is this a confusion with postmillennialism (which does affirm that it the world is improving, and which largely lost favor after the two world wars for obvious reason?)
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            I wonder, is this a confusion with postmillennialism (which does affirm that it the world is improving, and which largely lost favor after the two world wars for obvious reason?)
                            I saw a Babylon Bee article saying Postmillenials were listed as an endangered species.

                            I have seen Preterists advance the argument seanD mentioned, just not super common in my experience.

                            Comment


                            • I think I considered postmil at one point based on my attempts to make sense out of Isaiah 65:20 (which at face value could be taken to imply there is death in the New Jerusalem) but never fully embraced the position. As a whole, it seems weakly supported outside of late Isaiah which taken by themselves could make a case for it.
                              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                              Comment


                              • Well the good news for you futurist is that we're only 60% of the way to "...preaching the Gospel to the whole world before the end will come." (Matt 24:14)

                                https://joshuaproject.net/resources/...everyone_heard says:

                                So how many of the approximately 17,400 ethnic people groups are considered unreached i.e. less than 2% Christ-follower and less than 5% Professing Christian? The latest estimates suggest that approximately 7,400 people groups are considered unreached. That means over 40% of the world’s people groups have no indigenous community of believing Christians able to evangelize the rest of their people group. Over 42% of the world’s population live in these over 7,400 people groups.


                                https://globalfrontiermissions.org/g...at-commission/ says:

                                Unreached People GroupsIt is estimated that of the 7.75 billion people alive in the world today, 3.22 billion of them live in unreached people groups with little or no access to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. According to Joshua Project, there are approximately 17,400 unique people groups in the world with 7,000+ of them considered unreached (over 41% of the world’s population!). The vast majority (85%) of these least reached groups exist in the 10/40 window and less than 10% of missionary work is done among these people.
                                So, at least we know the end isn't coming real soon!
                                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by eschaton, 10-23-2020, 06:17 PM
                                0 responses
                                11 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post eschaton  
                                Started by eschaton, 10-19-2020, 02:05 PM
                                0 responses
                                24 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post eschaton  
                                Started by KingsGambit, 07-29-2018, 07:36 PM
                                72 responses
                                13,079 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post eschaton  
                                Started by Darfius, 07-26-2015, 12:35 AM
                                29 responses
                                17,462 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post eschaton  
                                Started by hamster, 07-05-2015, 01:07 PM
                                48 responses
                                31,105 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Dave L
                                by Dave L
                                 
                                Working...
                                X