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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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TSC Revisited

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  • TSC Revisited

    I'm back, probably briefly. I am sleeping better now so I thought I would tackle the topic of The Second Coming more coherently this time around:

    The Second Coming involves:

    a) The Trumpet

    b) The bodily Resurrection

    c) Final judgement

    The main data points will include 1Thess. 4; 2Thess. 1-2; 1Cor. 15; Acts 1; Matt. 24-25.

    Paul tells the Thessalonians that the Lord will return "with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first." This second coming of the Lord seems to be further illustrated in 2Thess. 1 wherein Paul details judgement on the wicked when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels; glorification and marveling of the Lord will ensure on behalf of the saints. In 2 Thess. 2 Paul reiterates the coming of the Lord and the gathering of believers to him. He states that this will not take place until the Lord destroys the lawless one. In 1Cor. 15. Paul tells the Corinthians a mystery: "We will not all die, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." In Acts 1 we have the Lord ascending up to heaven as the disciples watch on. Two angels appear and state: "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven".

    I will now highlight Matt. 24-25 in an attempt to pull some of this together. Matt. 24 highlights the destruction of the temple, the Lord's coming, and the end of the age. The gospel will be proclaimed throughout the world (cf. Col. 1:23), the desolating sacrilege will be standing in the holy place (cf. 2Thess. 2:1-12), the flight from Jerusalem will commence, whilst deception and suffering will abound, then: "immediately after the suffering of those days:

    the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
    the stars will fall from heaven,
    and the powers of heaven will be shaken.

    Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see ‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (cf. 1Thess. 4:16-17; 1Cor. 15:52). Now, an objection can be raised here that Matt. 24:31 does not have resurrection in view. However, I think that objection fails in light of the the "gathering" motif which echos Paul in 1Thess. 4:16-17; 2Thess. 2:1. Furthermore, the parable in Matt. 13:36-43 states that the sending of the angels by the Lord to gather the elect (and the reprobate) will occur at the "end of the age" whence final judgement shall be meted out (cf. Matt. 25:31-46). The discourse continues with Jesus stating that "this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place." Jesus goes on to state that "about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father". Now, I think it's important to note here the word usage of "day" and "hour". Jesus does not know the precise time of his coming in terms of "days" and "hours", but he seems to be under the impression that his arrival will happen within "that generation". This is further indicated by the parables which continue the discourse -- Jesus likens his temporary absence to a man going on a long journey for a long time. Now, when one went on a journey in the ancient world, perhaps they could not predict the precise "day" nor "hour" when they would return; however, they would return within a generation indeed.

    So, to wrap up: The judgement which occurred on Jerusalem in 70 AD seems to be inescapably intertwined with the imminent manifestation of the Lord Jesus who will usher in his eternal kingdom and judge the nations.

    PS: The above is not my official position. It is a general outline of a view that I am looking to debunk. Please do so. I will perhaps play devils advocate if I find your data unsatisfactory. Thank you, KINDLY.

  • #2
    The Apostolic writings should be probed further for additional data. A survey of the new testament will yield pervasive eschatological utterings by the Apostle's. Let's take a look at Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians:

    1Thess. 1:10: and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath that is coming

    1Thess. 2:19-20: For what is our hope or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you? Yes, you are our glory and joy!

    1Thess. 3:13: And may he so strengthen your hearts in holiness that you may be blameless before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.

    These verses seem to indicate that Paul was expecting the Lord to return during some of the Thessalonian's lifetime/generation. Paul will boast before the Lord "at his coming" of the Thessalonian's faith, love, and acceptance of the gospel. Moving along:

    1Thess. 4: 15-18: For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

    1Thess. 5: 1-5: Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers and sisters, you do not need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. When they say, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them, as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there will be no escape! But you, beloved, are not in darkness, for that day to surprise you like a thief; for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness.

    Here is the significant portion wherein Paul ties together the coming of the Lord (which includes resurrection & gathering of believers to meet the Lord in the air 1 Thess. 4:15-18) with the "thief in the night" motif uttered by the Lord Jesus in Matt. 24:42-44: "Keep awake therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But understand this: if the owner of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour." Now, this seems to further bolster the intertwining of the Lord's judgement on Jerusalem and his subsequent appearing, gathering, and final judging which we find in Matthew's olivet discourse; which now Paul echoes in 1 Thessalonians. Paul then exhorts the Thessalonians toward holy living in light of the Lord's coming and impending judgement:

    1Thess. 5:23: May the God of peace himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do this.
    Last edited by Scrawly; 05-10-2019, 07:59 PM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
      So, to wrap up: The judgement which occurred on Jerusalem in 70 AD seems to be inescapably intertwined with the imminent manifestation of the Lord Jesus who will usher in his eternal kingdom and judge the nations.

      PS: The above is not my official position. It is a general outline of a view that I am looking to debunk. Please do so. I will perhaps play devil[’]s advocate if I find your data unsatisfactory. Thank you, KINDLY.
      The following link may be of interest to you in your apparent quest to dispel preterism: <https://www.dts.edu/download/publica...terestView.pdf>

      (Stanley D. Toussaint, ‘A Critique of the Preterist View of the Olivet Discourse’, Bibliotheca Sacra 161 [Oct.–Dec. 2004]: 469–489.)
      For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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      • #4
        (Good call to the moderator for moving this thread from the Christianity 201 forum to Eschatology 201.)
        For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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        • #5
          I forgot to mention that I will be adding additional data to this topic, hopefully, in the near future. Please save any comments until I have finished.

          Thanks!

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          • #6
            Moderated By: BTC

            Scrawley, this isn't a blog forum. It's a discussion forum. We allow posters to respond when a post is posted.

            ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
            Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            Stephen R. Donaldson

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            • #7
              The idea that Matthew 24 is talking about a resurrection is hokey, because Matthew 24 talks about angels with trumpets gathering the elect. It is analogous to the seven trumpets of Revelation. In contrast, the resurrection occurs when Jesus Christ himself blows a trumpet and brings people to life via the Holy Spirit. No angels directly involved.

              Matthew 24 is talking about the reunification of Israel.

              Matthew 24:31

              And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


              Revelation 7:1-3

              1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


              Isaiah 11:12-16

              12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations,
              and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel,
              and gather together the dispersed of Judah
              from the four corners of the earth.
              13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart,
              and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off:
              Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
              and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
              14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west;
              they shall spoil them of the east together:
              they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab;
              and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
              15 And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea;
              and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river,
              and shall smite it in the seven streams,
              and make men go over dryshod.
              16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people,
              which shall be left, from Assyria;
              like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

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