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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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  • #46
    Originally posted by seanD View Post
    Wars and rumors of wars* -- pretty much every major power in the world is involved in some kind of conflict or dispute with another country (so many that it would have been tedious to list them here).

    * I think we should include the economic/currency wars between the world powers (for those privy to the current situation in global economics).

    Nation against nation (or tribe against tribe) -- all the protests, demonstrations, riots and coups in Latin America, North America, Europe, Middle East and Asia (again, too many for me to give links).

    The repercussions...

    Civil war had forced a staggering 51 million people worldwide to leave home by the end of 2013, according to the United Nations, and that was before they started fleeing Iraq in droves last week as fighters from a Sunni extremist group swept through the north.

    According to the United Nations annual report released Friday, most of the forcibly displaced worldwide are homeless in their own countries and are known as internally displaced persons. An additional 16.7 million people are refugees in another land.

    Astonishingly, half are children.

    Although the refugee numbers were higher after the end of the Cold War in the early 1990s, what distinguishes this report is the sharp increase in the ranks of the internally displaced since their numbers began to be tallied about 20 years ago.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/21/wo...-war.html?_r=0

    We're also dealing with unprecedented civilian numbers since WW2...

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5514414.html

    Comment


    • #47
      I have been thinking about this and reading the Bible on the matter. So restarting with your original post:

      Originally posted by seanD View Post
      NOT the tribulation (so please don't drone on about making careless predictions about the end of the world), but the troubling times that precede it. I know what the preterists will obviously say. I'm wondering what futurists think.

      Wars and rumors of wars* -- pretty much every major power in the world is involved in some kind of conflict or dispute with another country (so many that it would have been tedious to list them here).

      * I think we should include the economic/currency wars between the world powers (for those privy to the current situation in global economics).

      Nation against nation (or tribe against tribe) -- all the protests, demonstrations, riots and coups in Latin America, North America, Europe, Middle East and Asia (again, too many for me to give links).

      Pestilences -- MERS, ebola outbreaks, resurgence of measles and mumps.

      Earthquakes -- not just magnitude and frequency, but earthquakes happening in unexpected locations.
      I think the above is like the free space in Bingo. We've always had these and until kingdom come we always will. I think that's why Jesus says at the end of Mark 13:8 "These things are merely the beginning of the birth pangs."

      I think Mark 13:8-9 is the key to understanding our position in God's calendar. Mark 13:9 starts with Jesus saying "But be on your guard;..." This where Jesus tells the disciples what to be on guard for, to be alert for, or be on the watch for. What He says then you nicely summarize below.

      Originally posted by seanD View Post
      Persecution of the church -- discussed here.

      False prophets -- impending doom of Y2k, to comet Elenin, to 2012 and everything in between.

      The love of many will wax cold -- I don't think I need to elaborate on this one as it's all too obvious based on the cruelty we're seeing in society and how uncaring it is (i.e. few examples: here, here, here here here).
      So the question is, can we establish that these things are unusual to our time? The persecution of the church does seem to be a relatively common event in history and there are always false prophets. But is it at or nearing a higher level than historically? I'm not sure myself.

      Certainly love seems to be growing cold as you established in another post. I struggle with being loving.

      I think we're getting closer. The apathy towards Christians in the US and Europe is going to convert over to hatred and persecution - although I don't know the timing. Man is striving like Satan did to throw God off His Throne and sit in His stead.

      So is the "Abomination of Desolation" man exalting himself above God?
      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by seanD View Post
        "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name’s sake. It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony. So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves; for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute. But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, and you will be hated by all because of My name." Luke 21:12-17.





        We Christians here in America have it pretty good. However, seeing the public and media political firestorm building around the clash of conservative and liberal beliefs, that may be changing sometime in the future.
        Yes, we have it good in America for now, while the Christian church in other countries is the most persecuted religion in the world. But this is changing rapidly in America. The pieces of Matthew 24 are beginning to fall into place here as well. We're not there quite there yet, but we're getting there rather quickly.

        The city of Houston has issued subpoenas demanding a group of pastors turn over any sermons dealing with homosexuality, gender identity or Annise Parker, the city’s first openly lesbian mayor. And those ministers who fail to comply could be held in contempt of court.

        “The city’s subpoena of sermons and other pastoral communications is both needless and unprecedented,” Alliance Defending Freedom attorney Christina Holcomb said in a statement. “The city council and its attorneys are engaging in an inquisition designed to stifle any critique of its actions.”

        http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/...-over-sermons/
        No doubt this sentiment is spreading and becoming more forceful from government entities. 501c3 churches especially had better prepare, because their beloved government is about to give it to them in the behind on the issue of homosexuality... no pun intended.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by seanD View Post
          Yes, we have it good in America for now, while the Christian church in other countries is the most persecuted religion in the world. But this is changing rapidly in America. The pieces of Matthew 24 are beginning to fall into place here as well. We're not there quite there yet, but we're getting there rather quickly.

          No doubt this sentiment is spreading and becoming more forceful from government entities. 501c3 churches especially had better prepare, because their beloved government is about to give it to them in the behind on the issue of homosexuality... no pun intended.
          Christians sure have had it good in America. Protestantism has been the de facto state church. Its been socially expected to be a Christian. In some places, there was the church to be a member of if you wanted to be successful.

          Well, that is changing even if churches don't want to deal with it. And our churches are not ready for a change when it will cost people to be a member. They still preach come to Jesus and see all the benefits in your life. They never talk about the costs. (for example as taught in Luke 9:57-62) I'm half expecting a day will come that I will have to chose between my job and serving God. I'm struggling with holding on my faith when so many are speaking against it.

          By the way, I noticed you explicitly mention 501c3. Are you part of the unregistered church movement?
          "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

          "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
            Christians sure have had it good in America. Protestantism has been the de facto state church. Its been socially expected to be a Christian. In some places, there was the church to be a member of if you wanted to be successful.

            Well, that is changing even if churches don't want to deal with it. And our churches are not ready for a change when it will cost people to be a member. They still preach come to Jesus and see all the benefits in your life. They never talk about the costs. (for example as taught in Luke 9:57-62) I'm half expecting a day will come that I will have to chose between my job and serving God. I'm struggling with holding on my faith when so many are speaking against it.

            By the way, I noticed you explicitly mention 501c3. Are you part of the unregistered church movement?
            I had a pastor in the 90s who was warning about what tax exempt churches would eventually face and that just always stuck with me. It seems logical to me why this will become an eventual problem, especially in light of the heightening clash of political and societal beliefs we're seeing now.

            Comment


            • #51
              I think first it's good to remember Jesus was talking mostly to Jews, so I would look at it in the light of what's going on with Jews, Jerusalem, Israel. American futurist Christians especially tend to see prophecies through red, white, and blue colored lenses and interpret from that perspective, forgetting that much of what Jesus said was directed to Jews and not Gentiles at that point.

              I think a more subtle and symbolic interpretation is also possible, not always a picture of literal global chaos and catastrophe, but of events the secular world may not understand.

              Finally, as presented here in Matthew, the events begin with the problem of False Prophets/Messiahs. So I wouldn't read it as, there are going to be all these charlatans, earthquakes, ebola, starving kids in Africa. We've always had those things. I'd look at how they are metaphors about the appearance of a False Prophet.

              From a preterist view, the greatest one is Jewish authority compelling Gentile authority to agree that Jesus is not Messiah, chief priests and others before Pilate. From a futurist view, a further fulfillment in Jews persuading Gentiles that Israel should exist again without Jesus as King. Where the False Prophet in Revelation has 2 Horn kingdoms, Jewish and Gentile.

              Looking like a lamb and Jewish Messiah unto itself bringing salvation to Jews in the form of returning them from exile and keeping them safe from Hitlers of the world in a restored Israel. Speaking like a Gentile dragon a similar message to Eve: you don't need God, Jesus isn't King, you can be secular and your own gods. In other words the Harlot Jerusalem revived with the Gentile Beast, the state of that Beast Head when it was wounded in the 1st century brought to life again.

              That's the background which I've discussed more in other eschatology threads. So from that perspective:

              Mat 24:3-8 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

              4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

              5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

              Israel doesn't need Jesus to be its Messiah, or even any god.

              6. And ye shall hear of wars...

              WWII literally affected Jews in a horrible way. Israel went on to fight British, the Six Day War, Hamas, etc. We have spiritual and philosophical wars of hearts and minds too, we see them right here on Tweb, Christians and Jews trying to bring to and turn from Jesus, pro-Palestinians vs. Zionists, etc. Made possible like never before with technologies of media and the Internet.

              6. and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

              Rumors to me as in, people aren't sure if they are true or not, past/present/future.

              Of course many are wondering if Israel will fight Palestinians forever, or if there will be peace someday. And again, media and the Internet are filled with all kinds of "prophets" trying to predict what will happen, like we've never seen before.

              Aside from more realistic questions about war, we have all the wild conspiracy theories about Jews. There are still Holocaust deniers, and others suggest Jews were behind that to get rid of antizionist religious Orthodox so secular Zionists could speak for Jews and restore Israel. Then we have Protocols of Zion, Illuminati, Jewish bankers, New World Order, Hollywood, Reptilians, Noahide beheadings, Jews behind 9/11 and ISIS, 7-year peace treaties of an Antichrist, removing Muslims from the Mount to build the 3rd Temple...

              Of course I believe most are just that, conspiracy theories, but as such they qualify as rumors about Jews with a common thread of False Messianic attempts to war with the rest of the world.

              7. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom...

              I think there's the secular sense of war implied, people of Israel fighting with nations around it. But also a spiritual war between Messianic Kingdoms of Jesus and against Jesus.

              7. and there shall be famines and pestilences...

              Symbolically this may easily refer to the spread of secularism and atheism like a disease among Jews starving for God. A few verses ahead:

              Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

              7. and earthquakes, in divers places.

              Considering the following, earthquakes can symbolically refer to shaking faith of people as a test to see who remains and who falls away, which ties in with the previous verse implying that many fall away:

              Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

              Hebrews 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

              Could all this qualify as beginning of sorrows, sure I think so. There may be more extreme literal fulfillments, but maybe this is all we get for a sign. Since I'd rather not be one of those false prophets, I think Christians should at least be aware of the possibility and just keep watching.
              Last edited by JohnnyP; 10-26-2014, 02:40 PM.

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              • #52
                Jesus was talking to Jews throughout his whole ministry.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by seanD View Post
                  Jesus was talking to Jews throughout his whole ministry.
                  Right, my point being that although the Gentile Beast is involved -- yesterday it was Greece and Rome, today evolved out of them entities like UK, US, UN, secularism, western civilization -- the focus is mostly going to be on how it's involved with Jews, Harlot Jerusalem, and Israel in general.

                  In other words focusing mainly on Gentiles like the Pope, Reagan, Obama, etc. is something of a red herring.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Nothing about the Pope, Reagan or Obama was mentioned in this thread. At least not from me.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by seanD View Post
                      Nothing about the Pope, Reagan or Obama was mentioned in this thread. At least not from me.
                      Actually you said "Obama is definitely an antichrist and who has the spirit of lawlessness" but didn't think he was the Beast. But anyway I was naming examples of some that others have claimed were the "Antichrist" I wasn't saying that anyone here did.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                        Actually you said "Obama is definitely an antichrist and who has the spirit of lawlessness" but didn't think he was the Beast. But anyway I was naming examples of some that others have claimed were the "Antichrist" I wasn't saying that anyone here did.
                        Oh yeah, I forgot. I was being general, but I shouldn't have used "antichrist" as that's not what I was trying to convey. Any president that comes to power in the US will have the spirit of lawlessness at this point. Lawlessness no doubt as both Obama and Bush spit all over the law of the land. The law of the land is just about dead in the US.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          I don't really know what that means, the law of the land used to be slavery. The USA was never intended to be a Christian nation, in fact quite the opposite by people like Jefferson. But of course the USA has used Christianity to its advantage just like Hitler did, equating patriotism with faith in Jesus. Same as the RCC has always done, nothing new.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            I agree, US was never a Christian nation, but it's political, economic, religious influence in the world, especially in a technological age, was unique.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by seanD View Post
                              I had a pastor in the 90s who was warning about what tax exempt churches would eventually face and that just always stuck with me. It seems logical to me why this will become an eventual problem, especially in light of the heightening clash of political and societal beliefs we're seeing now.
                              For awhile around here, an unregistered church pastor had a radio ministry that I could listen to. That's where I got it from. I certainly think he had a point.

                              Actually I am not sure the government is the biggest threat. I think social shaming like that which got the head of Mozilla to quit is the more likely way of attack plus court cases.
                              "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                              "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                                Oh yeah, I forgot. I was being general, but I shouldn't have used "antichrist" as that's not what I was trying to convey. Any president that comes to power in the US will have the spirit of lawlessness at this point. Lawlessness no doubt as both Obama and Bush spit all over the law of the land. The law of the land is just about dead in the US.
                                As John points out, there are both "antichrist" and the "Antichrist." See 2 John 1:7 for an example. I think its perfectly legitimate to refer to someone as an "antichrist" without meaning he or she is the Antichrist.
                                "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                                "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                                Comment

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