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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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Are we in the Time of Sorrows?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by seanD View Post
    TM, I don't think naturalistic and atheistic philosophy is the deception, because for some Christians, this is too obvious. This is too obvious to some even outside Christianity, and it's not the impression I get from end time scripture. In fact, I don't believe atheism will continue to be considered a viable option for long. I'm thinking the deception will come in the guise of God. Either technology will become so miraculously advanced that it will look supernatural, or there will be a direct manifestation from a deceiving supernatural force (or perhaps both -- the latter will herald the former). In either case, science will underscore its validity and necessity. People will begin a renewed introspective search of spirituality. Religions, and most churches, will jump on board because it won't look evil at all but will be the greatest altruistic event in the history of mankind. Because of it's benevolence, empirical evidence and authority behind it, it will be virtually impossible to see as a deception except those that know a deception is supposed to come before the appearance of Christ.
    The point of deception is to separate man from God. Whether this is atheism's there is no God or another pretending to be God doesn't matter to the deceiver. Getting the separation is the point.

    So I don't think that atheism will go away. It will always be a tool for deceit.

    I have to give you your point. Many people believe in a higher power but they won't accept the God of the Bible is that power. This probably explains the rise of the spiritual but not religious people. They are having a spiritual relationship but they believe they can write the terms. I guess I was looking for something more spectacular.
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

    Comment


    • #32
      This article made me think of this thread: http://fox6now.com/2014/06/02/two-gi...o-kill-friend/
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        This article made me think of this thread: http://fox6now.com/2014/06/02/two-gi...o-kill-friend/
        I sure wish this was an isolated incident...
        "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

        "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

        Comment


        • #34
          And to think, it will get much worse than this.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by seanD View Post
            NOT the tribulation (so please don't drone on about making careless predictions about the end of the world), but the troubling times that precede it. I know what the preterists will obviously say. I'm wondering what futurists think.

            Wars and rumors of wars* -- pretty much every major power in the world is involved in some kind of conflict or dispute with another country (so many that it would have been tedious to list them here).

            * I think we should include the economic/currency wars between the world powers (for those privy to the current situation in global economics).

            Nation against nation (or tribe against tribe) -- all the protests, demonstrations, riots and coups in Latin America, North America, Europe, Middle East and Asia (again, too many for me to give links).

            Pestilences -- MERS, ebola outbreaks, resurgence of measles and mumps.

            Earthquakes -- not just magnitude and frequency, but earthquakes happening in unexpected locations.

            Persecution of the church -- discussed here.

            False prophets -- impending doom of Y2k, to comet Elenin, to 2012 and everything in between.

            The love of many will wax cold -- I don't think I need to elaborate on this one as it's all too obvious based on the cruelty we're seeing in society and how uncaring it is (i.e. few examples: here, here, here here here).

            Also, the passage that stands out most to me from 2 Timothy 3:1-5 is the first one in the list: "lovers of self." Nothing could be more of a representation of this than the global phenomenon of social media and the narcissism that it produces (i.e. the "selfie" trend, etc.).
            Haven't these things always existed in the last 2000 years? Maybe sometimes less and sometimes more, but what about 70 AD? Maybe the difference is that the world population is greater today.
            The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

            https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by eschaton View Post
              Haven't these things always existed in the last 2000 years? Maybe sometimes less and sometimes more, but what about 70 AD? Maybe the difference is that the world population is greater today.
              You're right, but here's the thing... those things also existed PRIOR to 2,000 years also, before Jesus gave those signs. So there must be something exceptional or unique either about the signs or about the period itself that is unique during which time the signs occur. If latter is true, we are definitely in an exceptional period. Check out my post here for an explanation of what I mean.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                The love of many will wax cold -- I don't think I need to elaborate on this one as it's all too obvious based on the cruelty we're seeing in society and how uncaring it is (i.e. few examples: here, here, here here here).
                ...

                "Onlookers were transfixed by the scene of a fatal crash on Wednesday afternoon; a heartbreaking chain of events, but what happened afterward made it even worse.

                Houston police say the mother behind the wheel of the Toyota 4-runner collided with another car heading northbound on Fondren near Dumfries. She crashed into a tree and died on impact.

                Her two sons -- ages 6 and 4 -- were wearing seat belts but were not sitting in car seats. They were rushed to the hospital with what we're told are non life-threatening injuries.

                But before help arrived, someone pounced. Eyewitnesses told police they saw people taking groceries out of the front seat of the dead woman's SUV."

                http://abc13.com/news/witnesses-thie...l-wreck/94137/

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                • #38
                  I think you're right that these things have always existed. We have to get to Matt. 24:21 before we get to a really unique time. Stealing from dead people is pretty disgusting, but I don't think it is anything new under the sun, and I doubt it is what the Bible is talking about. However, perhaps it does indicate a general degradation of society.
                  The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

                  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    You have to look at everything cumulatively. You begin to see unusual patterns. I don't know why that's so hard for people to do. Maybe that's why Jesus told us to watch the signs (plural).
                    Last edited by seanD; 06-08-2014, 03:54 PM. Reason: word confusion

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by seanD View Post
                      You have to look at everything cumulatively. You begin to see unusual patterns. I don't know why that's so hard for people to do.
                      Because they are not properly taught?
                      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                        Because they are not properly taught?
                        I think it's confirmation bias. People see what they want to see (or don't see what they don't want to see) based on what they've already convinced themselves is true.

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                        • #42
                          People in nearly every generation have seen the same signs and interpreted them to refer to their own situation. What makes us any different from all those other generations of Christians?
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            People in nearly every generation have seen the same signs and interpreted them to refer to their own situation. What makes us any different from all those other generations of Christians?
                            My view is that our period is exceptional because of exceptional technology never before possessed in any previous generation (what I've already stated in other posts in other threads). Other than that, that would be good question to raise to Jesus.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by seanD View Post
                              I think it's confirmation bias. People see what they want to see (or don't see what they don't want to see) based on what they've already convinced themselves is true.
                              Sorry, not the same. How many churches even teach end times (outside of the evangelical / fundamentalist)? I don't most people even think about Jesus coming back because they're not taught He will come back.

                              You're position is correct but is closer to they have been taught but are ignoring it because it doesn't fit with what they want.
                              Last edited by Thoughtful Monk; 06-09-2014, 07:27 PM. Reason: Added more detail
                              "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                              "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by seanD View Post

                                The love of many will wax cold -- I don't think I need to elaborate on this one as it's all too obvious based on the cruelty we're seeing in society and how uncaring it is (i.e. few examples: here, here, here here here).


                                Correlated study...

                                Empathy is a cornerstone of human behavior and has long been considered innate. A forthcoming study, however, challenges this assumption by demonstrating that empathy levels have been declining over the past 30 years.

                                The research, led by Sara H. Konrath of the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor and published online in August in Personality and Social Psychology Review, found that college studentsí self-reported empathy has declined since 1980, with an especially steep drop in the past 10 years. To make matters worse, during this same period studentsí self-reported narcissism has reached new heights, according to research by Jean M. Twenge, a psychologist at San Diego State University.

                                http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-me-care/

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