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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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Are we in the Time of Sorrows?

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  • Are we in the Time of Sorrows?

    NOT the tribulation (so please don't drone on about making careless predictions about the end of the world), but the troubling times that precede it. I know what the preterists will obviously say. I'm wondering what futurists think.

    Wars and rumors of wars* -- pretty much every major power in the world is involved in some kind of conflict or dispute with another country (so many that it would have been tedious to list them here).

    * I think we should include the economic/currency wars between the world powers (for those privy to the current situation in global economics).

    Nation against nation (or tribe against tribe) -- all the protests, demonstrations, riots and coups in Latin America, North America, Europe, Middle East and Asia (again, too many for me to give links).

    Pestilences -- MERS, ebola outbreaks, resurgence of measles and mumps.

    Earthquakes -- not just magnitude and frequency, but earthquakes happening in unexpected locations.

    Persecution of the church -- discussed here.

    False prophets -- impending doom of Y2k, to comet Elenin, to 2012 and everything in between.

    The love of many will wax cold -- I don't think I need to elaborate on this one as it's all too obvious based on the cruelty we're seeing in society and how uncaring it is (i.e. few examples: here, here, here here here).
    Last edited by seanD; 06-07-2014, 01:22 PM.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  • #2
    Yes. I am especially taken by your last point "The love of many will wax cold." More than any other, its the one that makes me think we are in the time of sorrow.


    Nit pick time: I would be careful about including Y2K as a false prophecy. I was in Info Tech at that time and really bad things would have happened if a lot people hadn't done a lot of work. You could argue it was over hyped and in that way a false prophecy I suppose.
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks for your input TM. I guess the subject is so taboo, futurists won't touch it with a ten foot pole. That's unfortunate.
      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by seanD View Post
        Thanks for your input TM. I guess the subject is so taboo, futurists won't touch it with a ten foot pole. That's unfortunate.
        Your welcome. I guess there is more excitement in the rapture is about to happen at any moment than admitting it might be a ways off. Also I don't think there are that many futurists on TWeb.

        (By the way I am undecided in my eschatology position.)
        "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

        "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
          Your welcome. I guess there is more excitement in the rapture is about to happen at any moment than admitting it might be a ways off. Also I don't think there are that many futurists on TWeb.

          (By the way I am undecided in my eschatology position.)
          I tend to think it's a chilling effect caused by all the false alarms in the past and the embarrassment of that stigma. Satan's success.
          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seanD View Post
            NOT the tribulation (so please don't drone on about making careless predictions about the end of the world), but the troubling times that precede it. I know what the preterists will obviously say. I'm wondering what futurists think.

            Wars and rumors of wars* -- pretty much every major power in the world is involved in some kind of conflict or dispute with another country (so many that it would have been tedious to list them here).

            * I think we should include the economic/currency wars between the world powers (for those privy to the current situation in global economics).

            Nation against nation (or tribe against tribe) -- all the protests, demonstrations, riots and coups in Latin America, North America, Europe, Middle East and Asia (again, too many for me to give links).

            Pestilences -- MERS, ebola outbreaks, resurgence of measles and mumps.

            Earthquakes -- not just magnitude and frequency, but earthquakes happening in unexpected locations.

            Persecution of the church -- discussed here.

            False prophets -- impending doom of Y2k, to comet Elenin, to 2012 and everything in between.

            The love of many will wax cold -- I don't think I need to elaborate on this one as it's all too obvious based on the cruelty we're seeing in society and how uncaring it is (i.e. few examples: here, here, here here here).

            Also, the passage that stands out most to me from 2 Timothy 3:1-5 is the first one in the list: "lovers of self." Nothing could be more of a representation of this than the global phenomenon of social media and the narcissism that it produces (i.e. the "selfie" trend, etc.).
            An excellent summation, and yes. I think the man of sin has also been revealed, which means the day of the Lord is at hand.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Darfius View Post
              An excellent summation, and yes. I think the man of sin has also been revealed, which means the day of the Lord is at hand.
              I think I can guess you're referring to Obama? If so, I believe Obama is definitely an antichrist and who has the spirit of lawlessness (as I believe Bush had), which is why he's shredding the Constitution, but I don't believe he's the Beast of Rev. Everyone hates Obama, even a lot of people from his own political party hate him, let alone the rest of the world. Putin is making a complete mockery of him to the world. Obama is a man of division; The Beast of Rev is of human unity. The only ones against the the Beast of Rev are the elect Christians that know he's (or it is) the false Christ.
              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                I think I can guess you're referring to Obama? If so, I believe Obama is definitely an antichrist and who has the spirit of lawlessness (as I believe Bush had), which is why he's shredding the Constitution, but I don't believe he's the Beast of Rev. Everyone hates Obama, even a lot of people from his own political party hate him, let alone the rest of the world. Putin is making a complete mockery of him to the world. Obama is a man of division; The Beast of Rev is of human unity. The only ones against the the Beast of Rev are the elect Christians that know he's (or it is) the false Christ.
                We rarely disagree, sean, but it appears we do so here. The beast of Revelation is not loved, he is feared. "Who is like unto the beast and who can make war with him?" Worship of him is even compelled by the false prophet, on penalty of death. This is not a man who inspires reverential awe, but self-preserving fear.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                  We rarely disagree, sean, but it appears we do so here. The beast of Revelation is not loved, he is feared. "Who is like unto the beast and who can make war with him?" Worship of him is even compelled by the false prophet, on penalty of death. This is not a man who inspires reverential awe, but self-preserving fear.
                  They fear him, but that doesn't mean they're being forced against their will. We fear God but we willing do it out of awe and affection. Note that in Rev 13:14 the people are deceived by the miraculous feats (which correlates with 2 Thess 2:9-12). Deception is not indicative of force. He imposes his will on the saints by force, very true, because they're not susceptible to the deception.
                  "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by seanD View Post
                    Also, the passage that stands out most to me from 2 Timothy 3:1-5 is the first one in the list: "lovers of self." Nothing could be more of a representation of this than the global phenomenon of social media and the narcissism that it produces (i.e. the "selfie" trend, etc.).
                    This is a good point, and worthy of reflection even if not solely from an eschatological perspective...
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seanD View Post
                      I think I can guess you're referring to Obama? If so, I believe Obama is definitely an antichrist and who has the spirit of lawlessness (as I believe Bush had), which is why he's shredding the Constitution, but I don't believe he's the Beast of Rev. Everyone hates Obama, even a lot of people from his own political party hate him, let alone the rest of the world. Putin is making a complete mockery of him to the world. Obama is a man of division; The Beast of Rev is of human unity. The only ones against the the Beast of Rev are the elect Christians that know he's (or it is) the false Christ.
                      Uhhh... just because the presidents haven't been of good quality doesn't make them freaking antichrists! Seriously, they're human like the rest of us. Unless you can show either of those men as having docetist tendencies...
                      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                        Uhhh... just because the presidents haven't been of good quality doesn't make them freaking antichrists! Seriously, they're human like the rest of us. Unless you can show either of those men as having docetist tendencies...
                        I did take liberty with what John specifically intended. However, I was equating it to Paul's description of the "man of lawlessness." I believe the spirit of lawlessness is in full swing, hence, the reason our Constitution (the document of laws) has been drastically chipped away in just the last decade. I know that Darfius knew what I intended which is why I used the word.
                        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          This is a good point, and worthy of reflection even if not solely from an eschatological perspective...
                          Very true.

                          I wonder how many Facebook friends or Twitter followers actually would show if someone needed help. In the typical case, probably not too many.

                          Unfortunately it also shows in churches where too many sermons are focused on the individual instead of the group.
                          "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                          "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Related to the OP, last night I was talking to a Christian friend and the topic of how the church in the USA seems to be in decline. We agreed its awfully depressing and hard to live when the world around you is in decay.
                            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                              Related to the OP, last night I was talking to a Christian friend and the topic of how the church in the USA seems to be in decline. We agreed its awfully depressing and hard to live when the world around you is in decay.
                              Yeah, that's another pertinent sign. Not just Christians turning apostate, but Christians falling into the ensnares of the world and its false worldviews.
                              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                              Comment

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