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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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Martyrdom of Antipas

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  • #61
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    So where is this third temple? Paul died before the second temple was destroyed - and there is nothing in the text to show that he is referring to any temple other than the one that, should he visit Jerusalem, he would see.
    Hi Tabibito,

    Paul is speaking in a future context because he is talking about "The Day of the Lord" when Jesus comes back (2 Thess. 2:1, 2). Jesus destroys the man of lawlessness who proclaims himself to be God in God's temple and is destroyed by the brightness of Christ's return. This places Christ's return, the antichrist's blasphemy and the temple in which it takes place all in the same time frame, and since Jesus has not yet returned, Paul must have been referring to a future temple which is not yet built. This 3rd temple will be in Jerusalem.

    It so happens that the Jews are planning to rebuild their temple as soon as circumstances permit. The Temple Institute has recreated all the necessary temple furniture and priestly garments, including the breastplate and crown for the High Priest. They have manufactured the Golden Lampstand which is already on display. They have the blueprints ready. They have recovered a sample of the oil of anointing and have raised a red-heifer whose ashes will be used for the purification ceremony. They have reconvened the Sanhedrin and have priests already trained in Mosaic sacrifice. It is just a matter of time before the building is set in motion. Go to: www.templeinstitute.org and https://youtu.be/nyXAAm7K_3U and https://youtu.be/kMIxZc_SKFo for a look at the progress so far.
    Last edited by xcav8tor; 04-26-2019, 05:02 PM.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by xcav8tor View Post
      It so happens that the Jews are planning to rebuild their temple as soon as circumstances permit. The Temple Institute has recreated all the necessary temple furniture and priestly garments, including the breastplate and crown for the High Priest. They have manufactured the Golden Lampstand which is already on display. They have the blueprints ready. They have recovered a sample of the oil of anointing and have raised a red-heifer whose ashes will be used for the purification ceremony. They have reconvened the Sanhedrin and have priests already trained in Mosaic sacrifice. It is just a matter of time before the building is set in motion. Go to: www.templeinstitute.org and https://youtu.be/nyXAAm7K_3U and https://youtu.be/kMIxZc_SKFo for a look at the progress so far.
      The problem is, "the Jews" that are "planning to rebuild their temple as soon as circumstances permit" are a fairly small group that are in no actual position to rebuild it. It'd be like saying that "some Alaskans" are "planning to have their state leave the US as soon as circumstances permit."

      The various problems that have prevented a reconstruction in the past are still there and show no signs of going away anytime soon. They still aren't sure exactly where the altar of the previous temple stood (and the new altar must be in the exact same spot as the previous one), nor would building a new temple be any less likely to provoke international conflicts due to the necessity of disturbing major Muslim holy sites in order to rebuild it. And there is considerable Jewish opposition to a rebuilding of the temple on religious grounds, believing that there should be no attempts to rebuild it until the messianic age.

      There may be some more rhetoric and posturing about a third temple than there was in the past, but in terms of practical progress I do not think we are any closer than we were when Israel was first re-founded.
      Last edited by Terraceth; 04-27-2019, 03:04 AM.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
        They still aren't sure exactly where the altar of the previous temple stood (and the new altar must be in the exact same spot as the previous one),
        Do you have Biblical support for this claim or are you similar to other preterists in that you find the Bible superfluous?

        The Bible (that book you neither read nor understand) presents the Antichrist as a man with all the answers, from the standpoint of the unsaved world. The "problems" you present exist to make him look good when he solves them. I'm sure some pompous preterist like you was explaining in 1947 how Israel wouldn't literally be reborn as a nation with heavy usage of his nasal passages in the process.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Darfius View Post
          Do you have Biblical support for this claim or are you similar to other preterists in that you find the Bible superfluous?
          It doesn't matter whether it has biblical basis or not; it's what the Jewish people believe, and they're the ones who the decision to construct the temple or not is up to.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
            It doesn't matter whether it has biblical basis or not;
            Well that sums you preterists up, doesn't it.

            it's what the Jewish people believe, and they're the ones who the decision to construct the temple or not is up to.
            Actually, it's up to God, not the Jewish people or any other group of people. But God's sovereignty has never mattered much to preterists either. Man I dislike you guys.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Darfius View Post
              Well that sums you preterists up, doesn't it.
              I thought it was obvious, but I was talking about it from the perspective of the Jewish people. So long as it comes from a source they consider authoritative (the Hebrew Bible being one, but not the only, such source), it's a belief of theirs. Your demand of biblical basis for a Jewish belief is therefore like wondering how Germany could legally pass a law that contradicts the United States constitution.

              Actually, it's up to God, not the Jewish people or any other group of people.
              My point was that none of the things xcav8tor was pointing to was actually anything close to a coherent step towards solving any of the current problems. Yes, of course God could just solve them all in a swoop, but that's exactly as true now as it was when Israel was founded or for that matter anytime since the destruction of the second temple.
              Last edited by Terraceth; 04-27-2019, 04:55 PM.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by xcav8tor View Post
                Hi Littlejoe,

                The entire chapter of Romans 11 indicates there will be no end to the nation of Israel, or Israel as God's "chosen people":

                1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!

                11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

                25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved.

                28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

                This is one of the main reasons I cannot accept the Preterist view. They don't recognize the future destiny of Israel, which is separate from that of the Church.
                I do not at all take issue with the idea that Israel will return to the Lord. What I dispute is the wholly unsupported (Biblically) theory that they will return via the Old Covenant, separate from that of the Church. Will Christ have two bodies? Will they return to God, without turning to Christ?
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  I do not at all take issue with the idea that Israel will return to the Lord. What I dispute is the wholly unsupported (Biblically) theory that they will return via the Old Covenant, separate from that of the Church. Will Christ have two bodies? Will they return to God, without turning to Christ?
                  Romans 11 is about the blindness being lifted and Israel returning via Christ. But it's also about Christians "returning" to worshipping God the way He desires worship with the help of the people who have worshipped Him longest.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                    Romans 11 is about the blindness being lifted and Israel returning via Christ. But it's also about Christians "returning" to worshipping God the way He desires worship with the help of the people who have worshipped Him longest.
                    Go and learn what this means: "I desire mercy, and not sacrifice." Rebuilding the Temple to worship there is therefore a non-starter. See, generally, the book of Hebrews. The people who have "worshipped Him longest" have gone full-on Pharisee, the system Jesus flatly rejected. Not sure how they're supposed to help us get closer to what He desires.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Go and learn what this means: "I desire mercy, and not sacrifice." Rebuilding the Temple to worship there is therefore a non-starter. See, generally, the book of Hebrews. The people who have "worshipped Him longest" have gone full-on Pharisee, the system Jesus flatly rejected. Not sure how they're supposed to help us get closer to what He desires.
                      Scripture Verse: Numbers 28:1

                      The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Give this command to the Israelites and say to them: ‘Make sure that you present to me at the appointed time my food offerings, as an aroma pleasing to me.’

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Scripture Verse: Malachi 3:6

                      I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. 7 Ever since the time of your ancestors you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you,” says the Lord Almighty.
                      “But you ask, ‘How are we to return?’
                      8 “Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me.
                      “But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’
                      “In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not drop their fruit before it is ripe,” says the Lord Almighty. 12 “Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land,” says the Lord Almighty.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Scripture Verse: Malachi 4:4

                      Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.
                      5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the parents (Jews) to their children (Christians), and the hearts of the children (Christians) to their parents (Jews); or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Scripture Verse: Zechariah 2:2

                      Then I looked up, and there before me was a man with a measuring line in his hand. 2 I asked, “Where are you going?”
                      He answered me, “To measure Jerusalem, to find out how wide and how long it is.”

                      © Copyright Original Source




                      Notice the same "measuring line" ritual present in Ezekiel 40 and Revelation 11. The temple will be rebuilt.


                      Scripture Verse: Zechariah 4:8

                      Then the word of the Lord came to me: 9 “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands will also complete it. Then you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you.
                      10 “Who dares despise the day of small things, since the seven eyes of the Lord that range throughout the earth will rejoice when they see the chosen capstone in the hand of Zerubbabel?”
                      11 Then I asked the angel, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?”
                      12 Again I asked him, “What are these two olive branches beside the two gold pipes that pour out golden oil?”
                      13 He replied, “Do you not know what these are?”
                      “No, my lord,” I said.
                      14 So he said, “These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth.”

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Two olive tree/lampstand imagery associated with two witnesses in Rev 11 here also associated with the temple, as there.


                      Scripture Verse: Isaiah 2:2

                      This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:
                      2 In the last days
                      the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
                      as the highest of the mountains;
                      it will be exalted above the hills,
                      and all nations will stream to it.
                      3 Many peoples will come and say,
                      Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
                      to the temple of the God of Jacob.
                      He will teach us his ways,
                      so that we may walk in his paths.”
                      The law will go out from Zion,
                      the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
                      4
                      He will judge between the nations
                      and will settle disputes for many peoples.
                      They will beat their swords into plowshares
                      and their spears into pruning hooks.
                      Nation will not take up sword against nation,
                      nor will they train for war anymore.
                      5
                      Come, descendants of Jacob,
                      let us walk in the light of the Lord. (Christ)

                      © Copyright Original Source

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        I do not at all take issue with the idea that Israel will return to the Lord. What I dispute is the wholly unsupported (Biblically) theory that they will return via the Old Covenant, separate from that of the Church. Will Christ have two bodies? Will they return to God, without turning to Christ?
                        Hi One Bad Pig,

                        Let me clarify. Ezekiel predicted the Jews would return to the land, but initially in unbelief. This was fulfilled in 1948:

                        Ezek. 36:8 “‘But you, mountains of Israel, will produce branches and fruit for MY PEOPLE ISRAEL, for THEY WILL SOON COME HOME. 9 I am concerned for you and will look on you with favor; you will be plowed and sown, 10 and I will cause many people to live on you—yes, all of Israel. The towns will be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. 11 I will increase the number of people and animals living on you, and they will be fruitful and become numerous. I will settle people on you as in the past and will make you prosper more than before. Then you will know that I am the Lord. 12 I will cause people, my people Israel, to live on you. They will possess you, and you will be their inheritance; you will never again deprive them of their children... 24 “‘For I WILL TAKE YOU OUT OF THE NATIONS; I WILL GATHER YOU FROM ALL THE COUNTRIES AND BRING YOU BACK INTO YOUR OWN LAND.

                        Ezek. 37:4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath[a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’” 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, BUT THERE WAS NO BREATH IN THEM... 20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I WILL MAKE THEM ONE NATION IN THE LAND, ON THE MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL. There will be one king over all of them and THEY WILL NEVER AGAIN BE TWO NATIONS OR BE DIVIDED INTO TWO KINGDOMS.

                        After Israel has been restored as a nation in unbelief, they will be invaded by Gog and his armies:

                        Ezek. 38:3 and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshek and Tubal... 7 “‘Get ready; be prepared, you and all the hordes gathered about you, and take command of them. 8 After many days you will be called to arms. IN FUTURE YEARS YOU WILL INVADE A LAND that has recovered from war, WHOSE PEOPLE WERE GATHERED FROM MANY NATIONS TO THE MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL, WHICH HAD LONG BEEN DESOLATE. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety... 14 “Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? 15 You will come from YOUR PLACE IN THE FAR NORTH, YOU AND MANY NATIONS WITH YOU, all of them riding on horses, a great horde, a mighty army. 16 You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. IN DAYS TO COME, GOG, I WILL BRING YOU AGAINST MY LAND, so that the nations may know me when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

                        But God Himself will miraculously deliver them:

                        Ezek 38:18 This is what will happen in that day: WHEN GOG ATTACKS THE LAND OF ISRAEL, MY HOT ANGER WILL BE AROUSED, declares the Sovereign Lord. 19 In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time THERE SHALL BE A GREAT EARTHQUAKE in the land of Israel... 21 I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign Lord. Every man’s sword will be against his brother. 22 I WILL EXECUTE JUDGMENT ON HIM WITH PLAGUE and bloodshed; I will pour down TORRENTS OF RAIN, HAILSTONES AND BURNING SULFER ON HIM AND ON HIS TROOPS and on the many nations with him. 23 And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord.’

                        Ezek. 39:27 When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of many nations. 28 Then they will know that I am the Lord their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. 29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT ON THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

                        Zechariah also speaks of this time of Israel's repentance (referred to by Paul in Romans 11 which I quoted earlier) which will take place at Christ's Second Coming (as He returns to the Mount of Olives as foretold in Acts 1):

                        Zech. 12:2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 ON THAT DAY, WHEN ALL THE NATIONS OF THE EARTH ARE GATHERED AGAINST HER, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves... 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem... 10 “And I WILL POUR OUT ON THE HOUSE OF DAVID AND THE INHABITANTS OF JERUSALEM A SPIRIT OF GRACE AND SUPPLICATION. THEY WILL LOOK ON ME, THE ONE THEY HAVE PIERCED, AND THEY WILL MOURN FOR HIM as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.

                        Zech. 13:3 ON THAT DAY A FOUNTAIN WILL BE OPENED TO THE HOUSE OF DAVID and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity... 8 “It will come about in all the land,”
                        Declares the Lord, “That two parts in it will be cut off and perish; But the third will be left in it. 9 “And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. THEY WILL CALL ON MY NAME, And I will answer them; I WILL SAY, ‘THEY ARE MY PEOPLE,’ And they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

                        Zech. 14:2 I WILL GATHER ALL THE NATIONS TO JERUSALEM TO FIGHT AGAINST IT; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 THEN THE LORD WILL GO OUT AND FIGHT AGAINST THOSE NATIONS, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 ON THAT DAY HIS FEET WILL STAND ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south... 9 THE LORD WILL BE KING OVER THE WHOLE EARTH. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.

                        Compare Acts 1:11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? THIS SAME JESUS, who has been taken from you into heaven, WILL COME BACK IN THE SAME WAY YOU HAVE SEEN HIM GO INTO HEAVEN.”12 Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem FROM THE HILL CALLED THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, a Sabbath day’s walk from the city.

                        And Rev. 19:11 And I SAW HEAVEN OPENED, AND BEHOLD, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and HIS NAME IS CALLED THE WORD OF GOD... 19 And I saw THE BEAST AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH AND THEIR ARMIES ASSEMBLED to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army... 20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21 And THE REST WERE KILLED WITH THE SWORD which came from the mouth OF HIM WHO SAT ON THE HORSE, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

                        From the Futurist perspective, the Church as the Body of Christ is distinct from Israel. The Church began on the Day of Pentecost and concludes with the Rapture when the last person of the Age of Grace has accepted Christ as their Saviour before the beginning of the Tribulation period leading up to Christ's return. While the Church is composed of both believing Jews and Gentiles during this time, after it is complete, the Church is taken to heaven to return with Christ at His return, while Jew and Gentile are left behind to face the Tribulation. People (both Jew and Gentile) during the Tribulation Period will still be saved by putting their faith in Christ, and the Jews will come to recognize and accept Christ as their Messiah and Saviour at His Second Coming, but neither group will at that point become part of the Body of Christ. At Christ's return, He well gather all nations before Him and separate the Sheep (believers) from the Goats (unbelievers), the saved will enter the Millennial Kingdom (with the Jews finally receiving their full inheritance of the land, and building the 4th Temple as memorials to Christ's sacrifice - NOT offerings for sin), and the lost put to death:

                        Matt. 25:31 “But WHEN THE SON OF MAN COMES IN HIS GLORY, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE GATHERED BEFORE HIM; AND HE WILL SEPARATE THEM from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the SHEEP ON HIS RIGHT, and the GOATS ON THE LEFT. 34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world... 41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels... 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

                        That's another problem with the Preterist position. If the 2nd Coming and the Rapture are the same event, then when Christ returns in the sky at Armageddon, the saved are already separated and there is no one left for Christ to separate into Sheep and Goats. Having the Rapture take place at the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation allows time for people to be converted and create the need for Christ to judge the survivors.

                        Btw, in my opinion, the invasion of Gog and Magog spoken of by Ezekiel would have to happen at least 3.5 years prior to the beginning of the Tribulation Period in order to allow Israel 7 years to burn the invaders' weapons before the mid-point of the 7 years when they have to run for their lives from the antichrist.

                        Does this all make sense to you, One Bad Pig? Not that I think anything I have said is going to change your mind, but I at least hope you can appreciate where I'm coming from.
                        Last edited by xcav8tor; 05-03-2019, 02:13 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by xcav8tor View Post
                          Hi One Bad Pig,
                          ....
                          Does this all make sense to you, One Bad Pig? Not that I think anything I have said is going to change your mind, but I at least hope you can appreciate where I'm coming from.
                          I was raised pre-trib, pre-mil futurist, and never even knew of any other way to interpret such passages until I was in my mid-20's; indeed, I was required to affirm such views to become a member of my family's church. That is to say, I understand where you're coming from; it was a fairly popular subject for exposition. I rather disagree that the (entirely secular) modern state of Israel has anything whatsoever to do with any biblical prophecy, and it is quite clear from, e.g., Romans 11 that the church is the faithful remnant of Israel spoken of by the prophets (and that, by extension, the oikoneme is now the whole world, not simply the ancient land of Israel). IMO futurists tend to take highly allegorical texts entirely too literally.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            ...I rather disagree that the (entirely secular) modern state of Israel has anything whatsoever to do with any biblical prophecy, and it is quite clear from, e.g., Romans 11 that the church is the faithful remnant of Israel spoken of by the prophets (and that, by extension, the oikoneme is now the whole world, not simply the ancient land of Israel). IMO futurists tend to take highly allegorical texts entirely too literally.
                            Hi One Bad Pig,

                            I have a problem with your theory that that the Church is Israel in this passage. Romans 11 tells us:

                            26 and in this way ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, THEY ARE ENEMIES for YOUR SAKE; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

                            So if Israel here is the Church, Paul is really telling us:

                            26 and in this way ALL "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL" WILL BE SAVED. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, THEY (SPIRITUAL ISRAEL - THE CHURCH) ARE ENEMIES for YOUR SAKE (THE CHURCH'S SAKE) SAKE; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

                            How can "Israel" in this passage be the Church (ie. "Spiritual Israel") and be "enemies" of the Church at the same time?
                            Last edited by xcav8tor; 05-03-2019, 04:19 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by xcav8tor View Post
                              Hi One Bad Pig,

                              I have a problem with your theory that that the Church is Israel in this passage. Romans 11 tells us:

                              26 and in this way ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, THEY ARE ENEMIES for YOUR SAKE; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

                              So if Israel here is the Church, Paul is really telling us:

                              26 and in this way ALL "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL" WILL BE SAVED. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, THEY (SPIRITUAL ISRAEL - THE CHURCH) ARE ENEMIES for YOUR SAKE (THE CHURCH'S SAKE) SAKE; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

                              How can "Israel" in this passage be the Church (ie. "Spiritual Israel") and be "enemies" of the Church at the same time?
                              I mean, in particular, Paul's image of the olive tree - which covers the bulk of the chapter, and which you did not address. "They" appears to be referring back to the branches cut off for unbelief, not verse 26. If your exegesis falls apart when the referent of a pronoun is shifted.... Your exegesis also makes hash of places where Jesus castigates Israelite towns such as Bethsaida and Chorazin as having fates worse than Sodom and where He casts down woes upon the Israelite Pharisees, and where Jesus condemns Israelites as sons of the devil for trusting in their descent from Abraham. The New Testament does not war with itself.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                I mean, in particular, Paul's image of the olive tree - which covers the bulk of the chapter, and which you did not address. "They" appears to be referring back to the branches cut off for unbelief, not verse 26. If your exegesis falls apart when the referent of a pronoun is shifted.... Your exegesis also makes hash of places where Jesus castigates Israelite towns such as Bethsaida and Chorazin as having fates worse than Sodom and where He casts down woes upon the Israelite Pharisees, and where Jesus condemns Israelites as sons of the devil for trusting in their descent from Abraham. The New Testament does not war with itself.
                                All of your examples were of "this generation", the people Jesus was speaking to and who specifically rejected Him. Where is your evidence that all Israelites throughout time after that were replaced?

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