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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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  • #76
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I mean, in particular, Paul's image of the olive tree - which covers the bulk of the chapter, and which you did not address. "They" appears to be referring back to the branches cut off for unbelief, not verse 26. If your exegesis falls apart when the referent of a pronoun is shifted.... Your exegesis also makes hash of places where Jesus castigates Israelite towns such as Bethsaida and Chorazin as having fates worse than Sodom and where He casts down woes upon the Israelite Pharisees, and where Jesus condemns Israelites as sons of the devil for trusting in their descent from Abraham. The New Testament does not war with itself.
    Hi One Bad Pig,

    I went back and carefully re-read all of Romans 11, and it is quite clear that there has always been a believing remnant in Israel, that God is not finished with Israel as a nation, and that after having made them jealous through His grace to the Church, eventually they will turn to Christ as their Messiah and Saviour and "if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!" Paul's initial declaration that God has not cast off forever the people that He foreknew (vs 1, 2) and his conclusion that,"God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable," (vs 29) are incompatible with the Preterist notion that God is through with them. Keep in mind, that if God could and did go back on His promises to Abraham, then His promises to the Church would be just as undependable. As Paul says - God forbid!

    Also, Paul's assurances that eventually God's mercy will result in "All Israel" being saved in the future in no way invalidates Christ's condemnation of those individuals who rejected Him in during the time of His First Coming. The New Testament is not warring with itself when it speaks of differing destinies of people separated by a span of 2,000 years.

    ISRAEL, whose hearts have been hardened in verse 25, are the same ones who are ENEMIES FOR YOUR (the Church's) SAKE of verse 28. My question stands: How can "Israel" in this passage be the Church (ie. "Spiritual Israel") and be "enemies" of the Church at the same time?
    Last edited by xcav8tor; 05-05-2019, 04:36 PM.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Darfius View Post
      All of your examples were of "this generation", the people Jesus was speaking to and who specifically rejected Him.
      I am not aware of subsequent generations accepting him. Perhaps you can point to evidence of such.
      Where is your evidence that all Israelites throughout time after that were replaced?
      I wouldn't say all, since there have been Israelites who have come to faith in Jesus as their messiah. You're free to point to evidence in scripture which states that those who have not believed in Jesus as the Messiah will be saved because they are descendants of Abraham, contra John 8.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by xcav8tor View Post
        Hi One Bad Pig,

        I went back and carefully re-read all of Romans 11, and it is quite clear that there has always been a believing remnant in Israel, that God is not finished with Israel as a nation, and that after having made them jealous through His grace to the Church, eventually they will turn to Christ as their Messiah and Saviour and "if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!" Paul's initial declaration that God has not cast off forever the people that He foreknew (vs 1, 2) and his conclusion that,"God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable," (vs 29) are incompatible with the Preterist notion that God is through with them. Keep in mind, that if God could and did go back on His promises to Abraham, then His promises to the Church would be just as undependable. As Paul says - God forbid!

        Also, Paul's assurances that eventually God's mercy will result in "All Israel" being saved in the future in no way invalidates Christ's condemnation of those individuals who rejected Him in during the time of His First Coming. The New Testament is not warring with itself when it speaks of differing destinies of people separated by a span of 2,000 years.

        ISRAEL, whose hearts have been hardened in verse 25, are the same ones who are ENEMIES FOR YOUR (the Church's) SAKE of verse 28. My question stands: How can "Israel" in this passage be the Church (ie. "Spiritual Israel") and be "enemies" of the Church at the same time?
        You are aware that, to get that interpretation, you need to assume the referent of a pronoun, yes? You did not address that.

        Look, I am more than willing to accept any Israelite who believes in Jesus as the Messiah as a fellow believer. I do not at all reject the possibility that a mass conversion of Jews to Christianity will occur near the end. If that happens, I will rejoice. I am even willing to accept that as a sign that the end is near. I just am not especially interested in eschatological prophecy because, as Jesus made clear, we do not know when He will return and thus we should be ready at all times for that. I do not understand the fascination with end times prophecy. Just hold yourself ready for His return, and you're good. Seriously.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          You are aware that, to get that interpretation, you need to assume the referent of a pronoun, yes? You did not address that.

          Look, I am more than willing to accept any Israelite who believes in Jesus as the Messiah as a fellow believer. I do not at all reject the possibility that a mass conversion of Jews to Christianity will occur near the end. If that happens, I will rejoice. I am even willing to accept that as a sign that the end is near. I just am not especially interested in eschatological prophecy because, as Jesus made clear, we do not know when He will return and thus we should be ready at all times for that. I do not understand the fascination with end times prophecy. Just hold yourself ready for His return, and you're good. Seriously.
          Possibly -
          Rom 11:22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off. 23 If the Jews do not persist in their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, because God is able to graft them in. 24 After all, if you were cut off from what is naturally a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much easier it will be for these natural branches to be grafted back into their own olive tree!


          There are places where it seems that all Israel will be restored: not forgetting the circumscribed and hyperbolic uses of "all." There doesn't seem to have been a time when Jerusalem has said "blessed be he who comes in the name of the Lord" post resurrection, which seems to be the point of that reference (willing to be shown that the interpretation is wrong.) But I don't spend a lot of time looking into end-times prophecies.
          Last edited by tabibito; 05-07-2019, 02:51 AM.
          sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            I mean, in particular, Paul's image of the olive tree - which covers the bulk of the chapter, and which you did not address. "They" appears to be referring back to the branches cut off for unbelief, not verse 26. If your exegesis falls apart when the referent of a pronoun is shifted.... You are aware that, to get that interpretation, you need to assume the referent of a pronoun, yes? You did not address that.
            Hi One Bad Pig,

            To the best of my knowledge, the "they" of Romans 11:28 must grammatically refer back to the nearest antecedent, which is Israel of verse 25 which has experienced a partial hardening but who will eventually be saved. You would have to skip over this in order to have "they" refer back further to the branches which were broken off in verse 19. And even if the "they" who are enemies applies to the broken branches, it would still refer to Israel "who are loved on account of the patriarchs." All Israel WILL BE saved because, as verse 29 states, "God's gifts and His call are irrevocable." God's faithfulness to Israel is our guarantee of God's faithfulness to the church.

            Your understanding of Romans 11 here still makes no sense to me. If you don't mind, perhaps you can copy the relevant verses and insert the word "Church" where you feel it is the intended meaning so I can view the text as you see it.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              You are aware that, to get that interpretation, you need to assume the referent of a pronoun, yes? You did not address that.
              Hi One Bad Pig,
              Now that I've addressed it, would you please reply?

              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              I do not understand the fascination with end times prophecy. Just hold yourself ready for His return, and you're good. Seriously.
              From my perspective, prophecy is a good evangelistic tool to demonstrate to unbelievers the divine inspiration and trustworthiness of the Bible. It also helps to be able to share with them that prophecies of the 2nd Coming are falling into place to give them that sense of urgency that the time is short and that it would be dangerous for them to put off a decision for Christ. Christ also encouraged us to be aware of the signs of His return when He said in Luke 21: "28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” 29 He told them this parable: 'Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near." Doesn't this suggest that we can know when His return is near? The fig tree is a symbol of the nation of Israel, and after 1900 years of exile, it has once again - against incredible odds - become a nation.

              Paul also said in 1 Thess. 5: "4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober." Doesn't this suggest that we should be paying attention to the many signs of His 2nd Coming so we will not be taken by surprise?

              Because so many signs have either taken place or are currently taking shape, I believe we have more reason than any previous generation to expect the rapture to take place in our lifetime. It's an incentive to holy living, to share the gospel, and to be mindful of what is going on in the world. Amos 3:7 tells us, "Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets." Why do you think God has provided so many prophecies of Christ's return? If He didn't want us to be aware of these things, why did He bother?

              I think this is another problem with the Preterist perspective. "There's no way of knowing when Christ will return because all the "signs" that were given applied to 70 A.D., so we will just soldier on as usual and what will happen will happen." I think the Lord gave us these signs for a purpose, not just to serve as "filler." I think He wants us to get excited.
              Last edited by xcav8tor; 05-25-2019, 01:05 PM.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by xcav8tor View Post
                Hi One Bad Pig,

                To the best of my knowledge, the "they" of Romans 11:28 must grammatically refer back to the nearest antecedent, which is Israel of verse 25 which has experienced a partial hardening but who will eventually be saved. You would have to skip over this in order to have "they" refer back further to the branches which were broken off in verse 19. And even if the "they" who are enemies applies to the broken branches, it would still refer to Israel "who are loved on account of the patriarchs." All Israel WILL BE saved because, as verse 29 states, "God's gifts and His call are irrevocable." God's faithfulness to Israel is our guarantee of God's faithfulness to the church.

                Your understanding of Romans 11 here still makes no sense to me. If you don't mind, perhaps you can copy the relevant verses and insert the word "Church" where you feel it is the intended meaning so I can view the text as you see it.
                Well, let's step back a little, and note that "they" in Rom. 11:28 is not eve present in the Greek. Paul is using very condensed language here (as is not unusual for him). What we need to do is be careful not to let our desired interpretation here conflict with other scripture, which is replete (especially in the Tanakh) with examples where a faithful remnant is saved, and the rest perish. If you refer back to the scripture to which Paul alludes,
                Source: Is. 59:17-20 NKJV

                17 For He put on righteousness as a breastplate, And a helmet of salvation on His head; He put on the garments of vengeance for clothing,
                And was clad with zeal as a cloak. 18 According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay, Fury to His adversaries, Recompense to His enemies; The coastlands He will fully repay. 19 So shall they fear The name of the Lord from the west, And His glory from the rising of the sun; When the enemy comes in like a flood, The Spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him. 20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” Says the Lord.

                © Copyright Original Source


                Note the language regarding enemies and in particular the slightly different language of verse 20, and compare with what Paul is saying about enemies in Rom. 11:28.
                Source: Is 27:6-9 NKJV

                6 Those who come He shall cause to take root in Jacob; Israel shall blossom and bud, And fill the face of the world with fruit. 7 Has He struck Israel as He struck those who struck him? Or has He been slain according to the slaughter of those who were slain by Him? 8 In measure, by sending it away, You contended with it. He removes it by His rough wind In the day of the east wind. 9 Therefore by this the iniquity of Jacob will be covered; And this is all the fruit of taking away his sin: When he makes all the stones of the altar Like chalkstones that are beaten to dust, Wooden images and incense altars shall not stand.

                © Copyright Original Source



                When Paul's references are investigated, it becomes your position which is discovered to be untenable, not mine. It becomes clear that "all Israel" means "those who turn from transgression" (Is. 59:20) and those who "take root in Jacob" (Is. 27:6), not the enemies of Christ (though of course they also have opportunity to repent and be grafted in once again - Rom 11:23). Once your mistaken declarative interpretation of Rom. 11:26a is cleared up, note the much less absolute language subsequent to it: v. 31 "...they also may obtain mercy"; v. 32 "that he might have mercy on all."
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by xcav8tor View Post
                  Hi One Bad Pig,
                  Now that I've addressed it, would you please reply?



                  From my perspective, prophecy is a good evangelistic tool to demonstrate to unbelievers the divine inspiration and trustworthiness of the Bible. It also helps to be able to share with them that prophecies of the 2nd Coming are falling into place to give them that sense of urgency that the time is short and that it would be dangerous for them to put off a decision for Christ. Christ also encouraged us to be aware of the signs of His return when He said in Luke 21: "28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” 29 He told them this parable: 'Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near." Doesn't this suggest that we can know when His return is near? The fig tree is a symbol of the nation of Israel, and after 1900 years of exile, it has once again - against incredible odds - become a nation.

                  Paul also said in 1 Thess. 5: "4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober." Doesn't this suggest that we should be paying attention to the many signs of His 2nd Coming so we will not be taken by surprise?

                  Because so many signs have either taken place or are currently taking shape, I believe we have more reason than any previous generation to expect the rapture to take place in our lifetime. It's an incentive to holy living, to share the gospel, and to be mindful of what is going on in the world. Amos 3:7 tells us, "Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets." Why do you think God has provided so many prophecies of Christ's return? If He didn't want us to be aware of these things, why did He bother?

                  I think this is another problem with the Preterist perspective. "There's no way of knowing when Christ will return because all the "signs" that were given applied to 70 A.D., so we will just soldier on as usual and what will happen will happen." I think the Lord gave us these signs for a purpose, not just to serve as "filler." I think He wants us to get excited.
                  Please note that the position I hold does not require the signs to only point to AD 70; double fulfillment is possible. You also flat ignored pretty much all I said about the very commonplace notion throughout church history which saw Christ's return just around the corner. All you're doing, just like those before you, is interpreting recent events to assert that Jesus' coming is really, really, soon, for really this time!!!!!

                  1 Thes. 5 suggests to me that we should always try to be ready for His return, regardless of what is going on around us. I don't know why you seem to think you need to argue against that notion.

                  In my opinion, end times fervor may be good to get people in the doors, but if that's their anchor, time goes by and the sense of urgency fades (because it's just not possible to keep that at a high level without burning out), and they drift away because what's been predicted isn't coming to pass. Now you've got apostates, worse off than they were in the first place.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    Well, let's step back a little, and note that "they" in Rom. 11:28 is not even present in the Greek...
                    When Paul's references are investigated, it becomes your position which is discovered to be untenable, not mine. It becomes clear that "all Israel" means "those who turn from transgression" (Is. 59:20) and those who "take root in Jacob" (Is. 27:6), not the enemies of Christ (though of course they also have opportunity to repent and be grafted in once again - Rom 11:23). Once your mistaken declarative interpretation of Rom. 11:26a is cleared up, note the much less absolute language subsequent to it: v. 31 "...they also may obtain mercy"; v. 32 "that he might have mercy on all."
                    Hi One Bad Pig,

                    Granted that those who WILL BE saved in the future, (ie "all Israel") "means those who turn from transgression" and "who take root in Jacob," Paul is talking about Israel which was currently blinded ("blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."). These are the ones who are "beloved for the sake of the fathers, and who are presently - concerning the gospel - "enemies for your sake":

                    28 Concerning the gospel [they are] enemies for your sake, but concerning the election [they are] beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

                    If "all Israel" who are "blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles come in" and who are "beloved for the sake of the Fathers" ARE NOT the "enemies" spoken of, then which enemy is Paul referring to?

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Please note that the position I hold does not require the signs to only point to AD 70; double fulfillment is possible. You also flat ignored pretty much all I said about the very commonplace notion throughout church history which saw Christ's return just around the corner. All you're doing, just like those before you, is interpreting recent events to assert that Jesus' coming is really, really, soon, for really this time!!!!!

                      1 Thes. 5 suggests to me that we should always try to be ready for His return, regardless of what is going on around us. I don't know why you seem to think you need to argue against that notion.

                      In my opinion, end times fervor may be good to get people in the doors, but if that's their anchor, time goes by and the sense of urgency fades (because it's just not possible to keep that at a high level without burning out), and they drift away because what's been predicted isn't coming to pass. Now you've got apostates, worse off than they were in the first place.

                      Hi One Bad Pig,

                      I agree that a double fulfillment of certain signs pertaining to 70 AD is possible (more likely a necessity).

                      I am not ignoring that the church throughout the centuries felt Christ's return was "just around the corner." The fact remains, however, that they were mistaken because they didn't understand that Israel had to become a nation again in order for Christ to return to rescue the nation. Only since 1948 did Christ's return become prophetically feasible.

                      Neither am I arguing against 1 Thess. 5 that we should always be ready for His return. How do you think I am opposing this?

                      Immanent fulfillment of prophecy is never meant to be the anchor. Past fulfilled prophecy demonstrates the inspiration of scripture, archaeology demonstrates its accuracy while the necessity of a Creator points to the eternal God described in the Bible, but the anchor of Christianity is the historical burial, death and bodily resurrection of Jesus. That is the foundation of our faith, and if new believers are grounded in that truth, then they will not drift away.

                      Seeing the various pieces of the prophetic puzzle fall into place in our day (just as the signs of Christ's 1st Coming) are intended to keep us in the loop (Amos 3:7), keep us in an attitude of anticipation (Luke 21:28) confirm our faith to unbelievers (John 14:29) and be a source of encouragement (2 Tim. 4:8).

                      Comment

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