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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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Critical Eschaton

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  • Critical Eschaton

    How do critical scholars such as Hurtado, Fredriksen, etc. view the eschaton? I ask because I haven't read any of their books, or any books by critical scholars for that matter. If I had to hazard a guess I would think something along the lines of:

    1) Jesus was mistaken in Matt. 23; Mark 13; Luke 21

    2) The destruction of the temple in A.D. 70 was to coincide with the bodily second coming, this is mainly evidenced by:

    3) Paul's letter(s) to the Thessalonians wherein he discusses being gathered together with the Thessalonians to meet the Lord, but not before the man of lawlessness is revealed (2Thes. 2:1-12; Matt. 24:15-28)

    4) After the temple and man of lawlessness are destroyed in judgment, the Lord will appear, send out his angels, and gather the elect (2Thes. 1:5-12; Matt. 24:30-31). The disciples are admonished to stay alert because this day will come like a thief in the night (1Thes. 5:1-2; Matt. 24:43-44).

    5) When the Lord returns at an unexpected day or hour (note the use of 'day' and 'hour'; also the parables in Matt. 24:45-51; Matt. 25:1-30 ) with his angels, he will gather the elect, and the nations before him will undergo judgement of eternal nature (2Thes. 1: 5-10; Matt. 25:31-46).

    6) The Christian believers started experiencing angst over the delay of Christ's return and mockers taunted them for holding hope in Christ's return. 2Peter was deployed to comfort and encourage the wavering believers (2Pet. 3:1-18).

    7) As the Jesus movement evolved and matured, the second coming was downplayed and/or an over-realized eschatology started to emerge (Eph. 2:6).

    Would this be a relatively accurate, rough summation of the historical-critical position in relation to eschatology?
    Last edited by Scrawly; 12-09-2018, 11:49 PM.

  • #2
    Wouldn't it make more sense to get off your duff and do some reading instead of guessing blindly? It would also help you to not lump people of varying views together.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #3
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Wouldn't it make more sense to get off your duff and do some reading instead of guessing blindly?
      I must say, you certainly exude gracious speech, OBP!

      It would also help you to not lump people of varying views together.
      Well as per the article, Hurtado states:

      "..Obviously, as Fredriksen emphasizes, Paul and that “first generation” held the eschatological conviction that Jesus’ return in glory and the consummation of God’s kingdom would take place within their lifetime.."

      I think it's safe to say that those on the critical spectrum share a critical eschatology in some form. Those who know exactly where Hurtado and company express their views can kindly point me in that direction.

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      • #4
        I should also add that I would rather not read an entire book by Hurtado on this matter if his eschatological viewpoint is similar in substance to what I've articulated in the OP. So, if anyone can confirm or deny and provide the according proof, I will be most appreciative. Some might call this lazy, I prefer to call it prudent.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
          I must say, you certainly exude gracious speech, OBP!
          Don't post something stupid, and I won't castigate you for it. ?
          Well as per the article, Hurtado states:

          "..Obviously, as Fredriksen emphasizes, Paul and that “first generation” held the eschatological conviction that Jesus’ return in glory and the consummation of God’s kingdom would take place within their lifetime.."

          I think it's safe to say that those on the critical spectrum share a critical eschatology in some form. Those who know exactly where Hurtado and company express their views can kindly point me in that direction.
          I think it's obvious that you don't know what the heck you're talking about, are unwilling to do the legwork to mitigate your ignorance, but want instead to be spoon-fed. For starters, "critical scholarship" is rather broad; presumably that includes NT Wright, who as a preterist would markedly disagree with Larry Hurtado on this point, at least in the way you attempted to expound on it.

          Pro tip: A humbler, more open approach would be to ask what Larry Hurtado believes regarding the eschaton, rather than flinging out a wild guess and hoping you hit something.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Don't post something stupid, and I won't castigate you for it. ?
            I'll post what I like. Try not to get your knickers in a knot when I do.

            I think it's obvious that you don't know what the heck you're talking about
            I don't think that's obvious, and you have yet to prove it.

            are unwilling to do the legwork to mitigate your ignorance, but want instead to be spoon-fed.
            I am careful with how I use my time. I do not wish to read entire books when my question can be resolved otherwise -- ever hear of working smart and not hard? I am exercising wisdom and prudence.

            For starters, "critical scholarship" is rather broad
            Didn't I use the term "critical spectrum"? Please read more carefully (presumably when your knickers are not in a knot).

            presumably that includes NT Wright, who as a preterist would markedly disagree with Larry Hurtado on this point, at least in the way you attempted to expound on it.
            Does N.T. Wright believe Paul was not mistaken about the second coming? I don't expect N.T. Wright to agree with my OP as it's far too concise and clear, for starters.

            Pro tip: A humbler, more open approach would be to ask what Larry Hurtado believes regarding the eschaton, rather than flinging out a wild guess and hoping you hit something.
            Hurtado believes Paul was wrong in his belief about the second coming, as proven in my link. I don't think Hurtado would answer my query if I posed it as I did in the OP, as scholars of his caliber are usually too busy, but it's worth a shot.
            Last edited by Scrawly; 12-10-2018, 10:47 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
              I'll post what I like.
              You are indeed free to post whatever you like. Expect snark when you post something stupid, that's all.
              Try not to get your knickers in a knot when I do.
              I don't.
              I don't think that's obvious, and you have yet to prove it.
              You ADMITTED to not having read the material, genius.
              I am careful with how I use my time. I do not wish to read entire books when my question can be resolved otherwise -- ever hear of working smart and not hard? I am exercising wisdom and prudence.
              By wildly guessing and hoping you're right? Not hardly. Why are you trusting random internet denizens (hiding behind screen names, no less) to provide you with accurate information? If you want to know what someone believes, why not read their material?
              Didn't I use the term "critical spectrum"? Please read more carefully (presumably when your knickers are not in a knot).
              You did. It's sufficiently broad as to be worthless. Chiding me to read more carefully doesn't change that.
              Does N.T. Wright believe Paul was not mistaken about the second coming? I don't expect N.T. Wright to agree with my OP as it's far too concise and clear, for starters.
              This tells me all I need to know about your interest in scholarship.
              Hurtado believes Paul was wrong in his belief about the second coming, as proven in my link. I don't think Hurtado would answer my query if I posed it as I did in the OP, as scholars of his caliber are usually too busy, but it's worth a shot.
              You could, I dunno, read his works if you're truly interested.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #8
                "Would this be a relatively accurate, rough summation of the historical-critical position in relation to eschatology?"

                I think your assessment is fair. Bart Ehrman a historical-critical scholar that I have read says this;

                ...the majority of critical scholars in the English-speaking (and German-speaking) world have understood Jesus for more than a century, since the publication of Albert SchweitzerÂ’s classic study,
                God's Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question-Why We Suffer by Bart D. Ehrman

                Schweitzer believed Jesus was a failed prophet who expected the parousia in his generation.

                A book I have read that was contributed to by a number of historical-critical scholars is;

                When the Son of Man Didn't Come: A Constructive Proposal on the Delay of the Parousia
                by Christopher M. Hays, Brandon Gallaher (Contributor), Julia S. Konstantinovsky (Contributor)

                "Ambitiously, we have sought to weave historical criticism, typology, canonical consciousness, ecclesial Christocentric Trinitarianism, liturgy, ecumenism, and ethics into a coherent thesis. Perhaps a single volume is simply too small for this effort; perhaps, it will strike readers more as a cacophony than a symphony."

                The theme of the book is the historical-critical problem of non-fulfillment of the second coming in the events of time and space (Mat 24:34, Mark 13:30). Jesus was wrong about "this generation". Other views outside the "academic juggernaut" of historical-critical interpretation aren't considered. Then a reversal is done to include all the above-named ideas into an interpretation. The church is to build the kingdom on earth (2 Pet 3:12).
                Last edited by eschaton; 01-09-2019, 12:24 PM. Reason: punctuation
                666 And The Name

                http://https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D1M48M4/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1594855398&refinements=p_2 7%3AAlan+Fuller&s=digital-text&sr=1-1&text=Alan+Fuller

                https://sites.google.com/site/apocalypticwisdom/

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