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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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  • #61
    Originally posted by eschaton View Post
    With both you and Darfius it seems I give an explanation and then you ask the question.

    What does Logos mean? Doesn't it mean the Word? Jesus represents the Word as the Word incarnate in the Gospel. So would you see the black and white word printed on paper riding a horse? That's a literal understanding. Would you see Jesus in a jet plane as you suggest? I gave verses Ephesians 6:17 and Hebrews 4:12 as an explanation. Then I gave an ancient commentary that explained their use. I'm just wasting my time I guess. You say you don't put much stock in the teachings of the apostles found in the early church. That's okay, you don't have to. You can believe anything you want to. If you believe a man has to re-enter his mother's womb then you're free to do so. (John 3:4) I know you would rather believe something you come up with yourself, but I believe the Bible should be interpreted with ideas of wisdom that were found in the world at the time they were written. That's reading the Bible in context.

    If you read modern scholars and ancient ones like Eusebius, you will find that fathers such as Papias, Barnabas, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus were considered pre-mill. I've read the original fathers and I say it's not true. For instance, Eusebius identified Cerinthus as an early pre-mill heretic. If Irenaeus was pre-mill why did he condemn Cerinthius also? One of the two had to be wrong. Darfius has labeled Hermas an early gnostic. Irenaeus quoted Hermas as scripture. Irenaeus is considered an identifier of orthodoxy and Gnosticism. Something is wrong somewhere. Again, give me the scripture where Jesus literally says that most of the Bible have to be interpreted literally.
    I'm most certain you believe the beginning of Genesis is one big parable. A guy that thinks Jesus returning on a horse is cartoonish would definitely think the story of Adam and Eve is the epitome of ancient ignorance and simplicity. I would consider that almost a given. But let me ask you: what do you think of the story of the Exodus? Do you think that was a parabolic story? You must consider such ant absurd account pretty cartoonish as well? Where does it stop? Like I said, a crucified Jew defying Deuteronomy 21:23 and coming back to life would have been the height of cartoonish to Jewish disciples, so why wouldn't that account also be a parable, as Crossan argues?
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by seanD View Post

      I'm most certain you believe the beginning of Genesis is one big parable. A guy that thinks Jesus returning on a horse is cartoonish would definitely think the story of Adam and Eve is the epitome of ancient ignorance and simplicity. I would consider that almost a given. But let me ask you: what do you think of the story of the Exodus? Do you think that was a parabolic story? You must consider such ant absurd account pretty cartoonish as well? Where does it stop? Like I said, a crucified Jew defying Deuteronomy 21:23 and coming back to life would have been the height of cartoonish to Jewish disciples, so why wouldn't that account also be a parable, as Crossan argues?
      Deu 21:23 is typology. Here is what Papias, who you and Eusebius consider pre-mill, said about the creation account.

      IX.
      Taking occasion from Papias of Hierapolis, the illustrious, a disciple of the apostle who leaned on the bosom of Christ, and Clemens, and Pantaenus the priest of [the Church] of the Alexandrians, and the wise Ammonius, the ancient and first expositors, who agreed with each other, who understood the work of the six days as referring to Christ and the whole Church.
      So how literal are the Creation days?

      Heb 4:4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
      2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
      3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
      4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
      5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
      6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
      7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
      8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
      9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.



      Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
      20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

      Crossan is a historical-critical guy. I don't endorse historical-critical or historical literal methods. I believe in the spiritual interpretations of Jesus and the apostles which I understand as being reflected in much of the early church.
      666 And The Name

      http://https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D1M48M4/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1594855398&refinements=p_2 7%3AAlan+Fuller&s=digital-text&sr=1-1&text=Alan+Fuller

      https://sites.google.com/site/apocalypticwisdom/

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by eschaton View Post
        You couldn't have found a more appropriate verse for this discussion. My ideas are based on scripture, the apostolic tradition in the first few centuries, and the context of those things found in second temple Judaism. The modern literalist is proud to base his opinions on third-grade reading ability. If you examine the history of pre-millennial predictions since the early 19th century you will find hundreds of false predictions. I can give you books to read that thoroughly document this. The one prediction that they are most proud of is the re-establishment of a national Israel, but even that isn't 100% accurate, since in many of those predictions prior to 1947 the seven-year tribulation was supposed to begin at that time.

        I want to see the verse where Jesus says thou must interpret the scriptures literally.
        "Apostolic tradition" is the Catholic church's favorite euphemism for making stuff up. Your thinking is so sloppy. What do past failed predictions have to do with the truth or falsehood of a claim? There's no difference between what you're saying and:

        Scripture Verse: 2 Peter 3

        4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

        © Copyright Original Source



        This is a fallacy of division. "All predictions up to now have been false, therefore this particular prediction is false."

        You also make fallacious appeals to authority very often. The only legitimate appeal to authority is to God Himself through His word.

        Jesus says to make right judgments, as we've already established. Endorsing private interpretations that have no objective basis within God's word is not a right judgment.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by eschaton View Post
          With both you and Darfius it seems I give an explanation and then you ask the question.

          What does Logos mean? Doesn't it mean the Word? Jesus represents the Word as the Word incarnate in the Gospel. So would you see the black and white word printed on paper riding a horse? That's a literal understanding. Would you see Jesus in a jet plane as you suggest? I gave verses Ephesians 6:17 and Hebrews 4:12 as an explanation. Then I gave an ancient commentary that explained their use. I'm just wasting my time I guess. You say you don't put much stock in the teachings of the apostles found in the early church. That's okay, you don't have to. You can believe anything you want to. If you believe a man has to re-enter his mother's womb then you're free to do so. (John 3:4) I know you would rather believe something you come up with yourself, but I believe the Bible should be interpreted with ideas of wisdom that were found in the world at the time they were written. That's reading the Bible in context.

          If you read modern scholars and ancient ones like Eusebius, you will find that fathers such as Papias, Barnabas, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus were considered pre-mill. I've read the original fathers and I say it's not true. For instance, Eusebius identified Cerinthus as an early pre-mill heretic. If Irenaeus was pre-mill why did he condemn Cerinthius also? One of the two had to be wrong. Darfius has labeled Hermas an early gnostic. Irenaeus quoted Hermas as scripture. Irenaeus is considered an identifier of orthodoxy and Gnosticism. Something is wrong somewhere. Again, give me the scripture where Jesus literally says that most of the Bible have to be interpreted literally.
          Are company logos "black and white words printed on paper"? Sometimes, but as you know, they are often just images. Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible Father. That's Scripture. So your question can be answered by the Bible itself without recourse to private interpretation under the guise of "wisdom". You're not wiser than God. Let Him explain Himself. That's the method you keep deriding as "something I came up with myself".

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Darfius View Post

            "Apostolic tradition" is the Catholic church's favorite euphemism for making stuff up. Your thinking is so sloppy. What do past failed predictions have to do with the truth or falsehood of a claim? There's no difference between what you're saying and:

            Scripture Verse: 2 Peter 3

            4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

            © Copyright Original Source



            This is a fallacy of division. "All predictions up to now have been false, therefore this particular prediction is false."

            You also make fallacious appeals to authority very often. The only legitimate appeal to authority is to God Himself through His word.

            Jesus says to make right judgments, as we've already established. Endorsing private interpretations that have no objective basis within God's word is not a right judgment.
            I agree that private interpretation is wrong. That's why I refer to scripture, apostolic teaching found in the early church, and second temple literature to understand the context. Using one's own literal interpretation is why we have so much disagreement today and so many different denominations that have their own different understandings like pre-mill, post-mill, pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, preterist, etc., etc. Everybody makes up their own interpretation based on "literal interpretation." it is really just private interpretation. That's why modern pre-mills produce so many false predictions. If you make enough predictions you're bound to get lucky once in a while.

            666 And The Name

            http://https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D1M48M4/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1594855398&refinements=p_2 7%3AAlan+Fuller&s=digital-text&sr=1-1&text=Alan+Fuller

            https://sites.google.com/site/apocalypticwisdom/

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Darfius View Post

              Are company logos "black and white words printed on paper"? Sometimes, but as you know, they are often just images. Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible Father. That's Scripture. So your question can be answered by the Bible itself without recourse to private interpretation under the guise of "wisdom". You're not wiser than God. Let Him explain Himself. That's the method you keep deriding as "something I came up with myself".
              I'm not wiser than God but I'm wiser than Darfius.

              1 Corinthians 1:24
              But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

              1 Corinthians 1:30
              But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
              666 And The Name

              http://https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D1M48M4/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1594855398&refinements=p_2 7%3AAlan+Fuller&s=digital-text&sr=1-1&text=Alan+Fuller

              https://sites.google.com/site/apocalypticwisdom/

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by eschaton View Post

                Deu 21:23 is typology. Here is what Papias, who you and Eusebius consider pre-mill, said about the creation account.
                Here is what Jesus said about the creation account:

                Scripture Verse: Mark 10

                6“But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ 7For this reason [because God created them male and female; the literal creation account] a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

                © Copyright Original Source



                Scripture Verse: Matthew 19

                4Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’ ? 6So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

                © Copyright Original Source



                He asked the Pharisees if they had read the text, not read into the text. He clearly accepted the creation account as literal.

                Scripture Verse: Matthew 24

                37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

                38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

                39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

                © Copyright Original Source



                He took the days of Noah literally. Or did you have some sort of allegorical interpretation for "eating and drinking"? And He said His return would be literal like the days of Noah.


                So how literal are the Creation days?

                Heb 4:4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
                2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
                3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
                4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
                5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
                6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
                7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
                8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
                9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
                Scripture Verse: 2 Peter 3

                8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

                © Copyright Original Source



                When God is being metaphorical, He tells us. He doesn't need you or so-called church fathers to act as mediator. Christ is the only mediator and the Bible is His word. The Millenium is the seventh day, in case you're too dumb to follow. And clearly you're too dumb to follow.


                Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
                20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

                Crossan is a historical-critical guy. I don't endorse historical-critical or historical literal methods. I believe in the spiritual interpretations of Jesus and the apostles which I understand as being reflected in much of the early church.
                This is saying that God can be understood by His creation, which is in fact the opposite of what you're saying, that He didn't create. You strip away His glory and presumably give it to some blind, random process. You don't even have a form of godliness while denying its power. You just aren't godly, bruh.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Here is the KJV. I don't see the word literal. Have you decided to rewrite the Bible? I see don't anything in the verses that requires a literal interpretation. Jesus is quoting scripture. He is pointing to a deeper sense, not a superficial reading.

                  6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

                  If you choose not to believe the apostles that's your choice.

                  2 Corinthians 3:6
                  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

                  Galatians 4:24
                  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

                  Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
                  Hosea 11:1, "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt").

                  Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
                  2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

                  Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
                  26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
                  27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
                  28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
                  29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
                  30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
                  31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
                  32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
                  John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

                  God has shown it to ALL men, not just those who have read the Bible.

                  Philo said that literalists are as evil as those before the flood.
                  666 And The Name

                  http://https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D1M48M4/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1594855398&refinements=p_2 7%3AAlan+Fuller&s=digital-text&sr=1-1&text=Alan+Fuller

                  https://sites.google.com/site/apocalypticwisdom/

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
                    2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
                    3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

                    It is by faith we understand, not literalness.
                    666 And The Name

                    http://https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D1M48M4/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1594855398&refinements=p_2 7%3AAlan+Fuller&s=digital-text&sr=1-1&text=Alan+Fuller

                    https://sites.google.com/site/apocalypticwisdom/

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by eschaton View Post

                      Deu 21:23 is typology. Here is what Papias, who you and Eusebius consider pre-mill, said about the creation account.



                      So how literal are the Creation days?

                      Heb 4:4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
                      2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
                      3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
                      4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
                      5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
                      6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
                      7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
                      8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
                      9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.



                      Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
                      20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

                      Crossan is a historical-critical guy. I don't endorse historical-critical or historical literal methods. I believe in the spiritual interpretations of Jesus and the apostles which I understand as being reflected in much of the early church.
                      Papias was in fact premil. Eusebius said Papias was expecting the literal bodily return of Christ and a kingdom he'd set up on earth. Is that not the definition of premil? I figured you knew what reference I was speaking of. Should I cite the quote? Other than that, I'm firm in my belief that your exegesis in error. The fact you consider Jesus' return as "cartoonish" alone is pretty much what settled it for me. But like I said, you do you.
                      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by seanD View Post

                        Papias was in fact premil. Eusebius said Papias was expecting the literal bodily return of Christ and a kingdom he'd set up on earth. Is that not the definition of premil? I figured you knew what reference I was speaking of. Should I cite the quote? Other than that, I'm firm in my belief that your exegesis in error. The fact you consider Jesus' return as "cartoonish" alone is pretty much what settled it for me. But like I said, you do you.
                        The Lord used to teach about those times and say: "The days will come when vines will grow, each having ten thousand shoots, and on each shoot ten thousand branches, and on each branch ten thousand twigs, and on each twig ten thousand clusters, and in each cluster ten thousand grapes, and each grape when crushed will yield twenty-five measures of wine. And when one of the saints takes hold of a cluster, another cluster will cry out, "I am better, take me, bless the Lord through me." Similarly a grain of wheat will produce ten thousand heads, and every head will have ten thousand grains, and every grain ten pounds of fine flour, white and clean. And the other fruits, seeds, and grass will produce in similar proportions, and all the animals feeding on these fruits produced by the soil will in turn become peaceful and harmonious toward one another, and fully subject to humankind.… These things are believable to those who believe." And when Judas the traitor did not believe and asked, "How, then, will such growth be accomplished by the Lord?", the Lord said, "Those who live until those times will see."
                        That's the same thing Irenaeus says about Papias.

                        2 Baruch 29:5 The earth also shall yield its fruit ten-thousandfold and on each (?) vine there shall be a thousand branches, and each branch shall produce a thousand clusters, and each cluster produce a thousand grapes, and each grape produce a cor of wine. 6 And those who have hungered shall rejoice: moreover, also, they shall behold marvels every day.

                        I don't see a claim that this is literal or a thousand-year kingdom on earth
                        666 And The Name

                        http://https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D1M48M4/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1594855398&refinements=p_2 7%3AAlan+Fuller&s=digital-text&sr=1-1&text=Alan+Fuller

                        https://sites.google.com/site/apocalypticwisdom/

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by eschaton View Post



                          That's the same thing Irenaeus says about Papias.

                          2 Baruch 29:5 The earth also shall yield its fruit ten-thousandfold and on each (?) vine there shall be a thousand branches, and each branch shall produce a thousand clusters, and each cluster produce a thousand grapes, and each grape produce a cor of wine. 6 And those who have hungered shall rejoice: moreover, also, they shall behold marvels every day.

                          I don't see a claim that this is literal or a thousand-year kingdom on earth

                          The fact you apparently don't know what Eusebius quote I'm referencing shows me you don't even know what you're talking about in regards to the CFs. Eusebius about Papias (Hist. 3:39:12)...

                          To these belong his statement that there will be a period of some thousand years after the resurrection of the dead, and that the kingdom of Christ will be set up in material form on this very earth. I suppose he got these ideas through a misunderstanding of the apostolic accounts, not perceiving that the things said by them were spoken mystically in figures. For he appears to have been of very limited understanding, as one can see from his discourses.
                          I'm out.
                          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by seanD View Post


                            The fact you apparently don't know what Eusebius quote I'm referencing shows me you don't even know what you're talking about in regards to the CFs. Eusebius about Papias (Hist. 3:39:12)...



                            I'm out.
                            My mistake. I quoted Irenaeus. But you didn't give all Eusebius said about Papias. He actually seems to contradict himself. Book III, Chapters 15, 36, and 39. Sometimes he praises Papias and other times calls him a man of small intelligence. That's what Eusebius thought about pre-mill (chiliasm). It was low-brow. You are aware that Eusebius believed pre-mill was a false teaching?

                            And besides, that is Eusebius' opinion, not a quote from Papias.
                            Last edited by eschaton; 10-17-2020, 08:45 PM. Reason: addition
                            666 And The Name

                            http://https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D1M48M4/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1594855398&refinements=p_2 7%3AAlan+Fuller&s=digital-text&sr=1-1&text=Alan+Fuller

                            https://sites.google.com/site/apocalypticwisdom/

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              seanD,

                              I think the reason you believe there is inconsistency is that you see the millennium as an earthly time period. I see it as a spiritual reality. In Jesus, there is no deception. In the world there is tribulation. That is consistent with Matthew 13 and the growing seasons. The idea of an earthly social or political kingdom is not. That's what I understand from the scriptures I've given. Where would you put a 1000 year earthly kingdom in the parable of the wheat and tares, or in the Olivet discourse?
                              666 And The Name

                              http://https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D1M48M4/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1594855398&refinements=p_2 7%3AAlan+Fuller&s=digital-text&sr=1-1&text=Alan+Fuller

                              https://sites.google.com/site/apocalypticwisdom/

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