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Binding of Satan

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Revelation 20 is at the end of the 7 year Tribulation, and marks the beginning of the Millenium alongside "the first resurrection" in which those who were "beheaded in the name of Christ" were supposed to be brought back to reign alongside Him for 1,000 years. Like I said earlier, unless Revelation is achronological as well as heavily symbolic you are talking about different periods of time.
    Well, no, you're assuming a Futurist view as the only correct one. (BTW, I was a futurist for 20+ years after my conversion and I'm still married to one) But from the Preterist standpoint, there's not problem. All that happened back in A.D. 70. I don't know how you know that the Christian martyrs of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem were not resurrected?

    As you know (you're a sharp guy and well read, so this is for the readers more than for you) Preterists are pretty much only waiting on Christ bodily coming and a final judgement. Most of that begins in Rev. 21

    How many of those who do are casting out demons like the disciples did? Even when Jesus cast them out all they ever seemed to do was move elsewhere, like when they went into the herd of pigs.
    I'm not sure on a hard number, my wife was involved in it for several years and she was taught by a group that also did it. So, I have first hand knowledge of it, but to you that's purely annectdotal which is understandable. But, maybe it helps you to see it a little from my POV?

    Implying to me anyway's that it's possible they were destroyed when the swine ran down the hill to the cliff and were drowned. I mean, angels and demons are created beings and IMO can be killed.

    Jibreel in Islam, and Moroni in Mormonism are two prominent examples I can think of that fit with this. I remember reading about a lot more, but can't remember the details on what work(s) it(they) were from. Deception is one of the primary tools of Satan, and being seen as something good works in his favor.
    No doubt! I agree deception is one of his primary tools.

    I gave a logical one based on what the Bible does teach about the subject. It's also partly based on personal experience with the demonic. Locking up Satan without locking up the "lesser" demons won't do much good. That kind of thing only works when you have a group that will be unwilling/unable to fight without their leader. Demons are not like that, they will steal, kill, and destroy for the sake of it.
    Yes, it's certainly plausible, but again, I think you are arguing from silence. Please feel free to show me how scripture would support the logical conclusion you are reaching. I honestly don't see it. But again, I'm not married to it.

    I've never said it was "just" demonic activity either.
    No you're right, you didn't, but you seemed to be implying it was primarily​ demonic, that's what I was responding to. Primarily implied to me to be almost always/mostly. It that was wrong I apologize.

    I can only see this as accurate in a much looser sense than Revelation 20 speaks of. Especially since Jesus later speaks how Satan wants to sift Peter like wheat, and is going to be allowed to do so.
    Satan had to ask permission though...that implies a binding IMO. No?

    I really don't see that. If anything things seem to be as bad as ever. Although, given what I've heard from others it is getting worse lately. Many who experience such things are either won't to bring it up because they are afraid they will seem crazy, or are so traumatized they would prefer to try and lock it out of their memories.
    Well, again I disagree, there may be activity but if you read the bible, there was massive amounts of demonic activity in that little country of Israel. I shudder to think what it was like in other places that openly worshiped demonic "gods" and such. I think relatively speaking, the activity seems to be far less in the here and now. That doesn't mean it's non-existent though. We agree on that much!
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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    • #17
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      I disagree with this one point. The gospel has been preached worldwide which it hadn't been in past centuries.
      Think of it this way, the demons were pretty much in control back then. Because of that they didn't have to fight as fiercely to get their way. Revelation 20 also describes Satan's release, which seems pretty intense. Intense enough to be described as him gathering armies from the world to destroy what appears to be a restored Jerusalem.

      Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
      Well, no, you're assuming a Futurist view as the only correct one. (BTW, I was a futurist for 20+ years after my conversion and I'm still married to one) But from the Preterist standpoint, there's not problem. All that happened back in A.D. 70. I don't know how you know that the Christian martyrs of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem were not resurrected?

      As you know (you're a sharp guy and well read, so this is for the readers more than for you) Preterists are pretty much only waiting on Christ bodily coming and a final judgement. Most of that begins in Rev. 21
      I didn't say they weren't resurrected. I said that the binding and "first resurrection" are said to happen at approximately the same time. I was trying to establish a timeline for it, and in Revelation has the markers of the beginning of the Millenium as Satan being bound, and the "first resurrection". This should be true under either Preterism or Futurism.

      I'm not sure on a hard number, my wife was involved in it for several years and she was taught by a group that also did it. So, I have first hand knowledge of it, but to you that's purely annectdotal which is understandable. But, maybe it helps you to see it a little from my POV?
      A while back when there was a demonic entity in our past house we asked our pastor for help. My first experience was after said attempt at getting rid of it.

      Implying to me anyway's that it's possible they were destroyed when the swine ran down the hill to the cliff and were drowned. I mean, angels and demons are created beings and IMO can be killed.
      Seeing this I have to ask if you believe in "soul sleep" or "physicalism"? Do you believe that we are just gone when our bodies die? I certainly don't, especially after what I've seen. To think that killing a host body of a demon kills it comes off as ridiculous to me. They don't even need bodies, and can do things that are very hard to understand even without one.

      Jesus spoke of demons that were cast out just returning if the person they were cast out didn't change. Granted, the host didn't die, but since they are spiritual beings a bodily death wouldn't harm them.

      Matthew 12:43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”

      No doubt! I agree deception is one of his primary tools.


      Yes, it's certainly plausible, but again, I think you are arguing from silence. Please feel free to show me how scripture would support the logical conclusion you are reaching. I honestly don't see it. But again, I'm not married to it.
      It flows from a couple of key points.

      Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”

      The other demons would have the same basic understanding.

      The angel who was held back by the "Prince of Persia" seems to be a "lesser" angel since he required Michael's help to get to Daniel. Simply being in the room where Daniel encountered him, without actually seeing him, filled them with such terror they fled and hid themselves.

      Daniel 10:7 I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; those who were with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. 8 So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. 9 Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground.

      That was the result on people from one angel that wasn't even seen. How much worse it would be with something with similar power that actually intended harm?

      So, they are all lashing out because they know they have no chance, and even the least demon has powers unimaginable for humans. Binding Satan, but not binding the others would be pointless.

      No you're right, you didn't, but you seemed to be implying it was primarily​ demonic, that's what I was responding to. Primarily implied to me to be almost always/mostly. It that was wrong I apologize.
      I'm not always as clear as I intend to be, so I don't mind clarifying things when asked.

      Satan had to ask permission though...that implies a binding IMO. No?
      No, unless you believe he was bound as far back as Job. He had to repeatedly ask for permission then too.

      Well, again I disagree, there may be activity but if you read the bible, there was massive amounts of demonic activity in that little country of Israel. I shudder to think what it was like in other places that openly worshiped demonic "gods" and such. I think relatively speaking, the activity seems to be far less in the here and now. That doesn't mean it's non-existent though. We agree on that much!
      It's still happening quite often, and all over the world. I would think Israel would have had more activity then than the other areas simply due to the fact that it was the "front lines" of battle at the time. Such places where foreign "gods" were worshiped were places they had effectively "owned". You usually don't fight on your own turf unless a threat shows up. The places that seem to have the most obviously demonic activity are those with a strong Christian presence, and third world countries that are being evangelized.

      I have noticed that the occult, New Age, and various pagan beliefs seem to be gaining more acceptance. Usually the latter is given a secular "gloss" though not always.

      More recently though they seem to be trying to identify themselves as aliens. At least in the more secularized countries. Even secular UFOlogists* see a link between alien encounters and demons. John Keel said the following.

      “Millions of people have been affected at least temporarily by UFO contact, [and] thousands have gone insane and ended up in mental institutions after their experiences with these things began.”

      “The UFOs do not seem to exist as tangible, manufactured objects. They do not conform to the natural laws of our environment. They seem to be nothing more than transmogrifications tailoring themselves to our abilities to understand. The thousands of contacts with the entities indicate that they are liars and put-on artists. The UFO manifestations seem to be, by and large, merely minor variations of the age-old demonological phenomenon. Officialdom may feel that if we ignore them long enough, they will go away all together, taking their place with the vampire myths of the Middle Ages.”

      Demonology is not just another crackpot-ology. It is the ancient and scholarly study of the monsters and demons who have seemingly coexisted with man throughout history. Thousands of books have been written on the subject, many of them authored by educated clergymen, scientists, and scholars, and uncounted numbers of well-documented demonic events are readily available to every researcher. The manifestations and occurrences described in this imposing literature are similar, if not entirely identical, to the UFO phenomenon itself. Victims of demonomania (possession) suffer the very same medical and emotional symptoms as the UFO contactees … . The devil and his demons can, according to the literature, manifest themselves in almost any form and can physically imitate anything from angels to horrifying monsters with glowing eyes. Strange objects and entities materialize and dematerialize in these stories, just as the UFOs and their splendid occupants appear and disappear, walk through walls, and perform other supernatural feats.”

      Jacques Vallee, who was the inspiration for a character in "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" said this.

      “I pointed out in Invisible College that the structure of abduction stories was identical to that of occult rituals. I had shown in Passport to Magonia that contacts with ufonauts was only a modern extension of contact with non-human consciousness in the form of angels, demons, elves, and sylphs. Such contact includes abduction, ordeal (including surgical operations), and sexual intercourse with the aliens. It often leaves marks and scars on the body and the mind, as do UFO abductions.”

      When writing "The Screwtape Letters" C.S. Lewis talks through the character Screwtape about how the demons were working on creating a "Materialist Magician" one who believes in "forces", but not God. They seem to be pretty well under way to achieving this with the deception they are spreading around as "aliens".

      *Despite many seeing this kind of thing as crazy, it's become more acceptable in the West to believe in aliens than in demons.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        A common position among preterists, at least on here, is that Satan is currently bound and unable to act. As best as I can tell, this position seems to come from Revelation 20:1-3.

        Here are some problems I have with this view:

        1) Revelation is a highly symbolic book with probably almost as many interpretations as there are sandwich combinations at Subway. The idea that Satan is bound means that you have the proper interpretation of Revelation as a whole, and of that particular symbolism. How sure can you be that that verse means that Satan is literally bound right now?

        2) A bound Satan would imply that James 4:7 (resist the devil and he will flee from you) is outdated. Now, that's plausible because James was probably the first book written in the New Testament and Revelation was certainly written after James. But are we sure enough that we are willing to set aside that particular verse? If so, it would have great practical implications. I personally believe in an active spiritual world, with forces for good and evil out there. We shouldn't be willing to dismiss this unless we are very sure. In other words, this is not simply an academic, hypothetical debate over the meaning of the text; it matters in the real world.

        3) Colossians 2:14-15 already says that the devil has lost and been defeated with the resurrection of Jesus. But as we see from James, that didn't mean Satan was unable to do anything diabolical after the resurrection. This suggests to me that we need to not take statements about the defeat of the devil *too* literally prior to Jesus's second coming. It could be that Revelation means that the devil's doom is a sure thing at this point in time.

        4) Even if the devil is literally bound, Revelation 20 says that he will be released again for a short time. Proponents of the "devil is bound" idea don't seem to emphasize this part. It would be prudent to warn people of this possibility so believers are not caught off guard.
        There is a Gospel passage that ought perhaps to be considered, from Mark 3:

        20Then Jesus went home, and once again a crowd gathered, so that He and His disciples could not even eat.21When His family heard about this, they went out to take custody of Him, saying, “He is out of His mind.”22And the scribes who had come down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and, “By the prince of the demons He drives out demons.”23So Jesus called them together and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, it cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, it cannot stand. 26And if Satan is divided and rises against himself, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27Indeed, no one can enter a strong man’s house to steal his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can plunder his house.


        Also, Matthew 12.22-30:


        22Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed the man so that he could speak and see. 23The crowds were astounded and asked, “Could this be the Son of David?”24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “Only by Beelzebul, the prince of the demons, does this man drive out demons.”25Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.29How can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.30He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.


        And Luke 11.14-23:


        14One day Jesus was driving out a demon that was mute. And when the demon was gone, the man who had been mute spoke. The crowds were amazed, 15but some of them said, “It is by Beelzebul, the prince of the demons, that He drives out demons.” 16And others tested Him by demanding a sign from heaven.17Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and a house divided against a house will fall. 18If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? After all, you say that I drive out demons by Beelzebul. 19And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 20But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.21When a strong man, fully armed, guards his house, his possessions are secure. 22But when someone stronger attacks and overpowers him, he takes away the armor on which the man relied, and then he divides up his plunder.23 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.”


        For a possible parallel to St Luke 11.19, see the “sons of Sceva” in Acts 19.11-20


        The 3 Gospel stories have their differences, but they all make the same point: the devil may be a “strong man”, but there is a Stronger. That Stronger Man, is Jesus, Who by His works and signs and mighty deeds binds the strong man. STM that these three Gospel passages are saying that satan is active, but bound all the same.


        Since Jesus has established the Kingdom of God, satan is bound in reality, even if not in appearance; and eventually, in God’s good time, that reality will be made complete; then satan, who is already bound in principle, will be completely bound in actuality.


        Satan has already been bound, and is bound now, not because we can see that he is, but because of what Christ has done. Satan is called bound, not because this corresponds with human experience, but because the final and total victory over satan and his works is a foregone conclusion. It is totally certain - so it can be described as though it were already, in every way, the accomplished reality that in due course it will be. Christ can be praised for His irreversible and total victory over satan even now. Currently, satan is bound, yet is permitted to act. A bit, perhaps, like a fierce dog on a long leash, which is captive, but not inactive.


        The binding of satan has happened; it is in process of happening; it is sure to be completed. We have an infallible pledge of its completion in the fact that God in Christ has begun it, and is doing it now. It is neither purely future, nor purely past, not purely present, but “was, and is, and is to come”.


        ISTM that Rev 20 makes the same point as the three Gospel narratives, but in a way suited to the apocalyptic type of writing that it is. The Book of Revelation shows that, despite appearances, God is in total control of all that happens; and that for their posturing and boasting & blaspheming, all human and demonic powers can do no more than God, for His purposes and not theirs, allows them to. The same apocalyptic attitude informs the Gospels.
        Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 12-30-2018, 09:55 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
          Implying to me anyway's that it's possible they [i.e. the demons in Mark 5.11–13] were destroyed when the swine ran down the hill to the cliff and were drowned. I mean, angels and demons are created beings and IMO can be killed.
          Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
          Seeing this[,] I have to ask if you believe in "soul sleep" or "physicalism"? Do you believe that we are just gone when our bodies die? I certainly don't, especially after what I've seen. To think that killing a host body of a demon kills it comes off as ridiculous to me. They don't even need bodies, and can do things that are very hard to understand even without one.

          Jesus spoke of demons that were cast out just returning if the person they were cast out didn't change. Granted, the host didn't die, but since they are spiritual beings a bodily death wouldn't harm them[:]
          43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.” [Matthew 12.43–45, NIV]
          I think that it would be helpful to differentiate between anthropology and demonology.

          One who subscribes to an essentially monistic/unipartite understanding of human nature (i.e. the belief that the individual human being is a soul, and, as such, does not possess a soul or spirit that is capable of surviving the death of the body) need not deny the incorporeal/immaterial nature of demons/unclean spirits. Whether demons will be everlastingly tortured or finally annihilated in the age to come, they, unlike human beings, are not embodied (corporeal/material) creatures.
          For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
            I think that it would be helpful to differentiate between anthropology and demonology.

            One who subscribes to an essentially monistic/unipartite understanding of human nature (i.e. the belief that the individual human being is a soul, and, as such, does not possess a soul or spirit that is capable of surviving the death of the body) need not deny the incorporeal/immaterial nature of demons/unclean spirits. Whether demons will be everlastingly tortured or finally annihilated in the age to come, they, unlike human beings, are not embodied (corporeal/material) creatures.
            Good to see you back Remonstrant!

            I'm not sure what your last sentence concludes. I agree they are not embodied, but, I wouldn't think that would have any bearing on whether or not they can ultimately be destroyed. Maybe you could clarify your point?
            "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

            "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
              Good to see you back Remonstrant!

              I'm not sure what your last sentence concludes. I agree they are not embodied, but, I wouldn't think that would have any bearing on whether or not they can ultimately be destroyed. Maybe you could clarify your point?
              Thank you, Littlejoe. It is good to see you again as well.

              Along with you, I believe that it is possible for demons/unclean spirits to be finally annihilated (killed, destroyed). I do not believe that that will occur prior to the second appearance of Christ, however.

              I take the basic evangelical annihilationist stance when it comes to the destiny of unsaved humans. Though some annihilationists maintain that Satan will be subjected to never-ending torment, I tend to believe that Satan and his non-human emissaries also will be eventually annihilated. This would then leave no aspect of the old, sin-cursed, fallen creation to survive the final judgement of the Lord Jesus Christ.
              For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                Satan has already been bound, and is bound now, not because we can see that he is, but because of what Christ has done. Satan is called bound, not because this corresponds with human experience, but because the final and total victory over satan and his works is a foregone conclusion. It is totally certain - so it can be described as though it were already, in every way, the accomplished reality that in due course it will be. Christ can be praised for His irreversible and total victory over satan even now. Currently, satan is bound, yet is permitted to act. A bit, perhaps, like a fierce dog on a long leash, which is captive, but not inactive.


                The binding of satan has happened; it is in process of happening; it is sure to be completed. We have an infallible pledge of its completion in the fact that God in Christ has begun it, and is doing it now. It is neither purely future, nor purely past, not purely present, but “was, and is, and is to come”.


                ISTM that Rev 20 makes the same point as the three Gospel narratives, but in a way suited to the apocalyptic type of writing that it is. The Book of Revelation shows that, despite appearances, God is in total control of all that happens; and that for their posturing and boasting & blaspheming, all human and demonic powers can do no more than God, for His purposes and not theirs, allows them to. The same apocalyptic attitude informs the Gospels.
                I am very sympathetic to this viewpoint. Would this mean that phenomenologically, little has changed on that front since, say, 70 AD?
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • #23
                  It's a wrong viewpoint to say that Satan is bound. It's especially wrong to say that he was bound ever since the cross. In Revelation 13 — after the cross — Satan backs two beasts who deceive the nations. In Revelation 20, he is bound from deceiving the nations any further. At the end of the millennium, he is released — even though the cross is still in effect. Therefore, the crucifixion is not the binding of Satan. Nor have I ever heard any plausible argument for why he would have been bound in 70 A.D.

                  If you look at the chronology of Revelation, and compare it with Matthew 24 (and Luke 21), it is clear that the sack of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. corresponds with the sixth seal. "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days," the stars fell from heaven. This refers to Satan being cast from heaven in 70 A.D., which is again described in Revelation 12. But just being cast from heaven isn't the same as being bound in hell. Revelation 13 makes that very clear.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Not sure how I missed this doozy the first go around, but I found it while looking for something else. I applaud Cerebrum's staunch defense of the truth in the face of the cowards here who refuse to discern the times as their alleged Master commanded them to. And yes, Satan being bound and the Millenium are inextricably bound, which is one of the many reasons the Jesuit created doctrine of preterism is a lie straight from hell.

                    Just look at this:

                    Originally posted by Littlejoe
                    Well, no, you're assuming a Futurist view as the only correct one. (BTW, I was a futurist for 20+ years after my conversion and I'm still married to one) But from the Preterist standpoint, there's not problem. All that happened back in A.D. 70. I don't know how you know that the Christian martyrs of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem were not resurrected?
                    This guy is advocating a "secret resurrection" in order to maintain his delusion. I think the secular historians might have mentioned dead Christians coming to life everywhere, don't you?

                    Obsidian's point about Satan backing the beasts of Revelation after the cross was also never addressed. Understandably so, since it can't be, but the dishonesty of the preterists on this site never ceases to amaze me.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I think the reason for the binding is to prevent deception, as I think somebody said.

                      Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
                      Cf. Mat 24:4-5,11 1 Cor 6:9 Eph 4:14 etc...

                      2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
                      8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
                      9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
                      2 Cor 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
                      15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
                      16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
                      So who is the false prophet that deceives the church? Here is an explanation from the second century.

                      He pointed out to me some men sitting on a seat, and one man sitting on a chair. And he says to me, "Do you see the persons sitting on the seat?" "I do, sir," said I. "These," says he, "are the faithful, and he who sits on the chair is a false prophet, ruining the minds of the servants of God. It is the doubters, not the faithful, that he ruins. These doubters then go to him as to a soothsayer, and inquire of him what will happen to them; and he, the false prophet, not having the power of a Divine Spirit in him, answers them according to their inquiries, and according to their wicked desires, and fills their souls with expectations, according to their own wishes. For being himself empty, he gives empty answers to empty inquirers; for every answer is made to the emptiness of man. Some true words he does occasionally utter; for the devil fills him with his own spirit, in the hope that he may be able to overcome some of the righteous. Shepherd of Hermas, Command 11

                      666 And The Name

                      http://https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D1M48M4/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1594855398&refinements=p_2 7%3AAlan+Fuller&s=digital-text&sr=1-1&text=Alan+Fuller

                      https://sites.google.com/site/apocalypticwisdom/

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by eschaton View Post
                        I think the reason for the binding is to prevent deception, as I think somebody said.
                        So is your claim that people are no longer being deceived?

                        So who is the false prophet that deceives the church? Here is an explanation from the second century.
                        How is that an explanation when no name is given?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                          So is your claim that people are no longer being deceived?

                          How is that an explanation when no name is given?
                          I believe he is chained from harming the hearts of the faithful.

                          Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
                          John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
                          I wrote;
                          Shepherd of Hermas, Command 11

                          Romans 16:14
                          Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.
                          Last edited by eschaton; 10-12-2020, 10:33 AM. Reason: addition
                          666 And The Name

                          http://https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D1M48M4/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1594855398&refinements=p_2 7%3AAlan+Fuller&s=digital-text&sr=1-1&text=Alan+Fuller

                          https://sites.google.com/site/apocalypticwisdom/

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by eschaton View Post

                            I believe he is chained from harming the hearts of the faithful.
                            Revelation says he is chained to prevent him deceiving "the nations", not the faithful.



                            I wrote;
                            Shepherd of Hermas, Command 11

                            Romans 16:14
                            Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.
                            Are you saying that Hermas is the name of the false prophet?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                              Revelation says he is chained to prevent him deceiving "the nations", not the faithful.

                              Are you saying that Hermas is the name of the false prophet?
                              The faithful can't be deceived. The dragon is chained. The doubting nations are always in danger because they don't have undoubting faith. Satan isn't chained for them.

                              Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
                              John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

                              I don't accept apocalyptic time periods as literal earthly time periods. They represent spiritual time. I recommend reading the "Shepherd of Hermas." Modern scholars believe it was written in the first half of the second century. Internal evidence points to late in the first century. Some in the early church believed it was written by the biblical Hermas. Hermas is the man to whom the revelation was given. Hermas is not the false prophet.
                              666 And The Name

                              http://https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D1M48M4/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1594855398&refinements=p_2 7%3AAlan+Fuller&s=digital-text&sr=1-1&text=Alan+Fuller

                              https://sites.google.com/site/apocalypticwisdom/

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by eschaton View Post

                                The faithful can't be deceived. The dragon is chained. The doubting nations are always in danger because they don't have undoubting faith. Satan isn't chained for them.

                                Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
                                John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

                                I don't accept apocalyptic time periods as literal earthly time periods. They represent spiritual time. I recommend reading the "Shepherd of Hermas." Modern scholars believe it was written in the first half of the second century. Internal evidence points to late in the first century. Some in the early church believed it was written by the biblical Hermas. Hermas is the man to whom the revelation was given. Hermas is not the false prophet.
                                Scripture Verse: Revelation 20

                                And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                What you are saying contradicts Scripture. Actual Scripture, not Gnostic knockoffs.

                                The false prophet is also a literal man:

                                Scripture Verse: Revelation 19

                                20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                Ideas aren't thrown "alive" into the lake of fire.

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