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Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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Replacement theology

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  • Replacement theology

    Revelation 7
    4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
    5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
    6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
    7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
    8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
    9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands

    It seems to me like the 144,000 is the same thing as the great multitude of many nations. Most people distinguish these, saying that the 144,000 are the Jews and the great multitude is the gentiles. But I think the correct interpretation is that the 144,000 is what John heard, whereas when John actually saw it, the 144,000 appeared innumerable.


    Other passages that could arguably support this interpretation include the following:

    James 1
    1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
    2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

    I don't see any reason to believe that James was writing to unsaved Jews. And he never qualifies his greeting by saying that he is only writing to "some" of the twelve tribes. Hence, the twelve tribes are probably the Christians.

    Matthew 19
    28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Presumably, the apostles get to judge more than just the ethnic Jews.

  • #2
    I wouldn't say that these passages teach "replacement theology." Rather, like the NT as a whole, they teach that Gentiles have been engrafted into the single people of God who have a single destiny. "Replacement theology" is a term coined by dispensationalists seeking to discredit covenant theology. I have been wondering whence it originally came, and who coined it.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by RBerman View Post
      I wouldn't say that these passages teach "replacement theology." Rather, like the NT as a whole, they teach that Gentiles have been engrafted into the single people of God who have a single destiny. "Replacement theology" is a term coined by dispensationalists seeking to discredit covenant theology. I have been wondering whence it originally came, and who coined it.
      For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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      • #4
        Originally posted by RBerman View Post
        I wouldn't say that these passages teach "replacement theology." Rather, like the NT as a whole, they teach that Gentiles have been engrafted into the single people of God who have a single destiny. "Replacement theology" is a term coined by dispensationalists seeking to discredit covenant theology. I have been wondering whence it originally came, and who coined it.
        I find it interesting that Jesus refers to unrepentant Jews being thrown into outer darkness (i.e., outside the Kingdom of Heaven) as "sons of the kingdom" in Matthew 8:12. Yet in 13:38 at the end of the age when Jesus returns "the good seed" in the world are called "sons of the kingdom" (presumably the sons of the kingdom are comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles).

        Traditional dispensationalism seems to be guilty of some of the worst ethnocentrism imaginable in Christian theism. God prioritizes his people, the Church, not the nation of Israel (cf. Ephesians 1-3). We may say that God's people are Israel if by Israel we mean "spiritual Israel" (believing Jews and Gentiles). But the people of Israel are not all the people of God (cf. Romans 9:6ff.).
        For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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        • #5
          Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
          I find it interesting that Jesus refers to unrepentant Jews being thrown into outer darkness (i.e., outside the Kingdom of Heaven) as "sons of the kingdom" in Matthew 8:12. Yet in 13:38 at the end of the age when Jesus returns "the good seed" in the world are called "sons of the kingdom" (presumably the sons of the kingdom are comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles).

          Traditional dispensationalism seems to be guilty of some of the worst ethnocentrism imaginable in Christian theism. God prioritizes his people, the Church, not the nation of Israel (cf. Ephesians 1-3). We may say that God's people are Israel if by Israel we mean "spiritual Israel" (believing Jews and Gentiles). But the people of Israel are not all the people of God (cf. Romans 9:6ff.).
          As Paul uses Israel in more than one sense, so does Jesus with 'kingdom [of heaven]:
          Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force

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          • #6
            It's not just the dispensationalists who claim that the 144,000 are Jews. The preterists usually argue it too, I think.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
              It's not just the dispensationalists who claim that the 144,000 are Jews. The preterists usually argue it too, I think.
              Not sure what identifying the 144,000 as Jews has to do with "replacement theology."
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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              • #8
                Based in Rom 9-11 Paul was not an advocate of replacement theory neither was his audience. The goal of Rom 9-11 was to show that God had been faithful to the promises to Israel, for the sake of the fathers. This faithfulness was proven (or demonstrated) through the plan to save all of Israel -- which was something coming to completion in the first century. The covenant to Israel was being completed ... not replaced and not terminated.

                RBerman is essentially correct in saying that gentiles were grafted into the 'people of God.' The work of God, involving all peoples, was to continue through a people not uniquely identified with gentiles nor uniquely identified with Israel. It was a plan which removed the distinction between Jew and gentile.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                  Based in Rom 9-11 Paul was not an advocate of replacement theory neither was his audience. The goal of Rom 9-11 was to show that God had been faithful to the promises to Israel, for the sake of the fathers. This faithfulness was proven (or demonstrated) through the plan to save all of Israel -- which was something coming to completion in the first century. The covenant to Israel was being completed ... not replaced and not terminated.

                  RBerman is essentially correct in saying that gentiles were grafted into the 'people of God.' The work of God, involving all peoples, was to continue through a people not uniquely identified with gentiles nor uniquely identified with Israel. It was a plan which removed the distinction between Jew and gentile.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                  • #10
                    Then what is the purpose of the reinstatement of the nation Israel, land specifically part of the earthly covenant given to Abraham and his descendants, and why does Israel play such a pivotal role in global geopolitics today?
                    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seanD View Post
                      Then what is the purpose of the reinstatement of the nation Israel, land specifically part of the earthly covenant given to Abraham and his descendants
                      Not all of the promised land has been reinstated.
                      and why does Israel play such a pivotal role in global geopolitics today?
                      Because just about all its neighbors want to wipe it off the map.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                        Based in Rom 9-11 Paul was not an advocate of replacement theory neither was his audience. The goal of Rom 9-11 was to show that God had been faithful to the promises to Israel, for the sake of the fathers. This faithfulness was proven (or demonstrated) through the plan to save all of Israel -- which was something coming to completion in the first century. The covenant to Israel was being completed ... not replaced and not terminated.

                        RBerman is essentially correct in saying that gentiles were grafted into the 'people of God.' The work of God, involving all peoples, was to continue through a people not uniquely identified with gentiles nor uniquely identified with Israel. It was a plan which removed the distinction between Jew and gentile.
                        But the earthly covenant (which included land) promised to Abraham and his descendants was vowed to be forever. So I don't see how you can avoid arguing that the church is spiritual replacement of the earthly covenant.
                        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          But the earthly covenant (which included land) promised to Abraham and his descendant was vowed to be forever. So I don't see how you can avoid arguing that the church is spiritual replacement of the earthly covenant.
                          The (Mosaic) convenant with Israel =/= the covenant with Abraham.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                            Not all of the promised land has been reinstated.

                            Because just about all its neighbors want to wipe it off the map.
                            Well, yeah, and this was the same reason their enemies had thousands of years ago when the covenant to Abraham was made up to 70 CE. Why is it continuing as it did thousands of years ago?
                            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                              The (Mosaic) convenant with Israel =/= the covenant with Abraham.
                              Further, Jesus will reign over the entire Earth, not just the initial land of promise.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment

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