Life after the eclipse (sign of Jonah)

[Darfius]

Gathering the elect doesn't refer to the fall of Jerusalem. Gathering the elect refers to creating a new Israel after the first one is destroyed.

Isaiah 11:12-16
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations,
and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel,
and gather together the dispersed of Judah
from the four corners of the earth.
The envy also of Ephraim shall depart,
and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off:
Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west;
they shall spoil them of the east together:
they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab;
and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea;
and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river,
and shall smite it in the seven streams,
and make men go over dryshod.
And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people,
which shall be left, from Assyria;
like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

I take this gathering to mean a process (as the text implies), not a one-time event. That's why in Revelation it isn't described as a one-time event, either. It is described as a period of at least 3.5 years.

Lemme whisper Ezekiel 37 into ya ear again

[eschaton]

To better expound on my definition of overcome, the book of Revelation offers plenty of context for what it means. It basically just means "to win." And if you join Christ's kingdom (by believing on him), you are a winner by association.

1) Victory of God's kingdom over the devil

Revelation 12:7-11
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

2) Defeat of God's earthly kingdom by the Beast

Revelation 13:5-7
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

3) Victory of God's earthly kingdom over the beast

Revelation 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

In ch 12 most of the action is on earth after verse 7, and yet you don't include it in (2).
2 and 3 are about God's earthly kingdom, and yet chs. 14 and 15 begin in heaven. To me this makes your scheme seem kind of ambiguous.

[Obsidian]

Oh boy. You're saying by "cut off", Christ meant the Father would take men out of this life...and into heaven???

Imagine God letting Sampson get captured by the Philistines. Then you'll have the right idea of what I mean by cut off.

He didn't die. Not the second and only real death.

Revelation 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jonah 2:1-2
Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish’s belly, and said,
I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord,
and he heard me;
out of the belly of hell cried I,
and thou heardest my voice.

Now you're directly contradicting Scripture, but I get called the heretic.

No, I'm interpreting language. It's called the subjunctive mood. Look it up. Eternal life isn't defined as knowing God. Eternal life serves the purpose of allowing us to know God.

[Obsidian]

In ch 12 most of the action is on earth after verse 7, and yet you don't include it in (2).
2 and 3 are about God's earthly kingdom, and yet chs. 14 and 15 begin in heaven. To me this makes your scheme seem kind of ambiguous.

In Chapter 12, after being cast down, the dragon tries to defeat the saints on earth, but he is unable to succeed. That's why he comes up with the idea for the Beast in Chapter 13.

And I think the 144,000 are basically described as being in heaven and on earth at the same time.

[Darfius]

Imagine God letting Sampson get captured by the Philistines. Then you'll have the right idea of what I mean by cut off.

This is idiotic. You're claiming Jesus meant, "if you don't obey me, that means you don't love me and you'll be cut off, meaning at some point, maybe even after 80 years, you'll die and join Me in heaven". How do you dare call yourself Christian?

Revelation 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jonah 2:1-2
Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish’s belly, and said,
I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord,
and he heard me;
out of the belly of hell cried I,
and thou heardest my voice.

So by this you think He ceased to exist? Because He had to have ceased to exist if the opposite of "death" is "existing forever." Corner, meet Obsidian's back.

No, I'm interpreting language. It's called the subjunctive mood. Look it up. Eternal life isn't defined as knowing God. Eternal life serves the purpose of allowing us to know God.

Jesus Christ defines eternal life as knowing God and Himself. Your interpretation be (and is) damned.

[eschaton]

In Chapter 12, after being cast down, the dragon tries to defeat the saints on earth, but he is unable to succeed. That's why he comes up with the idea for the Beast in Chapter 13.

And I think the 144,000 are basically described as being in heaven and on earth at the same time.

If the 144,000 are in heaven and earth at the same time, is Mt. Sion heavenly, earthly, or also both? Is God's kingdom also in heaven and earth? If so why don't you show it in (1)?

[Darfius]

Of all the books in the Bible, Revelation has by far the most symbolic language in it. It seems to me that categorically ruling out anything but a literal interpretation of anything in the book is perhaps not interacting with the text in the way it was meant to be read.

Orthodox preterism is quite in line with 2 Thessalonians, in that the Second Coming has not yet happened. It would help if you portrayed what I actually believe and not what you imagine I believe. I am not a Neo-Hymenaean.

Be specific. Do you agree that the man of sin must be revealed before the Lord returns?

[Obsidian]

If the 144,000 are in heaven and earth at the same time, is Mt. Sion heavenly, earthly, or also both? Is God's kingdom also in heaven and earth? If so why don't you show it in (1)?

I was just trying to explain to Darfius what "overcome" means so he would stop trusting in his own works, and get saved. Don't nitpick my list. Chapter 12 shows a clear sequence where Christ purifies the heavens first, and this purification causes serious problems for the people on earth. The 3.5 years occurs at some point after the devil is cast down.

In Chapter 7, the 144,000 people are sealed specifically so that the Trumpets can't hurt them. Hence, it is clear that they have an earthly presence. Otherwise, a seal would be unnecessary. I don't know specifically what "Mount Zion" means. I would assume that it just refers to the kingdom of God in some way.

[One Bad Pig]

And Jesus apparently disagrees with you. He gave signs for a reason, and the reason was to know when "it's even at the door."

Yes, that happened already, before that generation passed away (as Jesus said). Those weren't signs of the end, however.

I'm not sure why Jesus and Paul bothered giving signs when they could have just taken your advice. It's as if you're telling Jesus he just shouldn't have given any signs of his coming because they "should try to always be ready to meet their Maker" instead of being concerned about signs. Nonetheless, I'll follow Jesus' advice. If you don't want to, then don't. I "denigrated" your position because I believe your position is simply wrong.

Are you trying to say that I should NOT try to always be ready to meet my Maker, but I should look for signs instead? I get the idea that you didn't even bother reading the passages I cited. Jesus gave signs for a very good reason - so the core of the Christian movement wasn't destroyed along with Jerusalem in AD 70.

[Obsidian]

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto death." That looks to me like three things them overcomers done did, but all you talk about is taking a bath in Jesus' blood while you sin to your heart's content. Nah, playa

It's using collective language about God's people as a whole.

[One Bad Pig]

Be specific. Do you agree that the man of sin must be revealed before the Lord returns?

Why shouldn't I? Paul is pretty explicit on that.

[Darfius]

Why shouldn't I? Paul is pretty explicit on that.

Belief in a future Antichrist is definitely not "orthodox preterism".

[seanD]

Yes, that happened already, before that generation passed away (as Jesus said). Those weren't signs of the end, however.
Are you trying to say that I should NOT try to always be ready to meet my Maker, but I should look for signs instead? I get the idea that you didn't even bother reading the passages I cited. Jesus gave signs for a very good reason - so the core of the Christian movement wasn't destroyed along with Jerusalem in AD 70.

I'm saying being ready to meet our Maker is a given to the faith. Looking for signs and being ready at all times to meet our Maker is not mutually exclusive, and it's such a goofy argument to imply otherwise. I think you know it's goofy, but you're making it a dichotomy just for the sake of arguing. Jesus and Paul took it as a given they'd be ready at all times which is why they gave signs of the Lord's coming anyway as a utility to the faith. Like I said, if you disagree with Jesus and Paul giving the signs then that's on you.

[eschaton]

I was just trying to explain to Darfius what "overcome" means so he would stop trusting in his own works, and get saved. Don't nitpick my list. Chapter 12 shows a clear sequence where Christ purifies the heavens first, and this purification causes serious problems for the people on earth. The 3.5 years occurs at some point after the devil is cast down.

In Chapter 7, the 144,000 people are sealed specifically so that the Trumpets can't hurt them. Hence, it is clear that they have an earthly presence. Otherwise, a seal would be unnecessary. I don't know specifically what "Mount Zion" means. I would assume that it just refers to the kingdom of God in some way.

I think you challenged me with some verses that were part of your idea as if I should know that your ideas were right. I need to be a nitpicker to find out the validity of what you're saying. Revelation can be hard enough without trying to read somebody's mind. In Ch. 8 there is the heaven, earth pattern. The language at the end of ch. seven implies eternity, and I would say the withholding of earthly judgments (7:3) is a heavenly edict that refers back to the earthly judgments, much like the 3.5 years. BTW, I think the greatest error in Bible prophecy is taking time periods literally. I think Philo of Alexandria was right about the 6 days of Genesis and the same principle should be applied to prophecy.

And he says that the world was made in six days, not because the Creator stood in need of a length of time (for it is natural that God should do everything at once, not merely by uttering a command, but by even thinking of it); but because the things created required arrangement;

Philo of Alexandria; On the Creation

[Obsidian]

The language at the end of ch. seven implies eternity, and I would say the withholding of earthly judgments (7:3) is a heavenly edict that refers back to the earthly judgments, much like the 3.5 years.

I have no idea what you are saying. But if you are saying that the trumpets happen before Chapter 7, then that is clearly contrary to the chapter.

BTW, I think the greatest error in Bible prophecy is taking time periods literally.

I'm not taking anything literally. I'm just saying that the time periods are present in between various events. I think the whole 3.5 years may refer to many centuries.