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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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Your best arguments for: Pret-rib, Mid-trib, Post-Trib

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Faber View Post
    No, I mean I don't believe in a future 7-year great tribulation.
    You or OBP can correct me but, I think that is amillenialism. They do not believe in a literal 1000 year reign, and that we are now in the "millennia"...therefore there would not be a future 7 year Tribulation. Most Preterists also do not believe in a future 7 year tribulation...they would say that Israel A.D. 66 - A.D. 73 was the Tribulation.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
      I was under the impression that Post-trib and pre-wrath were a bit mutually exclusive? As most scholars have the 2nd half of the Trib as the Wrath of God period. How is this different than Mid trib?
      As a post-trib, I have always held the view that the wrath of God would be after the rapture. (I came from the pre-trib viewpoint).


      Pre-trib view assumes the wrath of God to be the tribulation. And the promise, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." -- 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, . . ." -- 1 Thessalonians 5:9, as definitive proof texts for the pre-trib rapture view.

      In the Book of Revelation, God's wrath is first mentioned at the end of the sixth seal, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" -- Revelation 6:17. That wrath is also mentioned at the end of the 7 trumpets 11:18. And again at the end of the 7th bowel being poured out 16:18. And corresponds to events referenced in 19:15 and 14:19. As sets of sequential, yet parallel simultaneous events.

      And the signs in the Sun and Moon to precede Christ's appearing in 6:12 is called signs of "before that great and notable day of the Lord come: . . ." -- Acts 2:20. Jesus said this would happen "Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . ." -- Matthew 24:29.

      And the trumpet sound at Christ's appearing, Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16, the Apostle Paul calls the last trumpet, 1 Corinthians 15:52.

      So those who believed in Him as He promised, He will raised them in time called last day, John 6:39, 44.

      Just a short over view.
      Last edited by 37818; 07-22-2017, 11:15 AM.
      . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
        You or OBP can correct me but, I think that is amillenialism. They do not believe in a literal 1000 year reign, and that we are now in the "millennia"...therefore there would not be a future 7 year Tribulation. Most Preterists also do not believe in a future 7 year tribulation...they would say that Israel A.D. 66 - A.D. 73 was the Tribulation.
        The Millennium has been confusing to me for a long time. It's from a book that seems to be almost entirely symbolic, but what is it symbolic of? The Bible speaks of an eternal kingdom with a descendant of David as king, which I understand to be Jesus, but not limited to a thousand years. Revelation 20:2 speaks of binding the dragon/devil/Satan for a thousand years, and I understand the devil to be symbolic of the Roman Empire. The souls of those beheaded come to life, but the rest of the dead aren't resurrected until after a thousand years. But the Western Roman Empire was destroyed more than 1,500 years ago and counting. And then Satan/Rome shall be released? That I don't understand, but I'm not ready to kick out the Millennium altogether. I just don't make sense of it.

        As for the seven years, I take that to mean 171 BC to 164 BC, beginning with the murder of Onias III, the high priest. In the midst of the seven years Antiochus IV desecrated the temple, put a stop to the sacrifices. His firm covenant with many, including an infidel high priest was to indoctrinate the Jews into heathen worship,. When it didn't work, he would force them to eat pig and forbid circumcision or Sabbath worship, etc. Until Judas Maccabeus came to the rescue.

        The 12 months/1260 days of Revelation I understand to be the Jewish War, from around April AD 67 with the invasion of Gadara to the destruction of the temple and the city and the end of fighting on September 2, AD 70.
        Last edited by Faber; 07-22-2017, 06:21 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Faber View Post
          The Millennium has been confusing to me for a long time. It's from a book that seems to be almost entirely symbolic, but what is it symbolic of? The Bible speaks of an eternal kingdom with a descendant of David as king, which I understand to be Jesus, but not limited to a thousand years. Revelation 20:2 speaks of binding the dragon/devil/Satan for a thousand years, and I understand the devil to be symbolic of the Roman Empire. The souls of those beheaded come to life, but the rest of the dead aren't resurrected until after a thousand years. But the Western Roman Empire was destroyed more than 1,500 years ago and counting. And then Satan/Rome shall be released? That I don't understand, but I'm not ready to kick out the Millennium altogether. I just don't make sense of it.
          Just commenting. It seems you take the Revelation to be interpreted historically. Your comments (not quoted here) on the tribulation, would required a discussion of how you make the connection between those events you cite with the symbolism you refer to in the book. Which would be a whole topic in and of itself.

          The Millennium in the pre-millennium view is taken to be the last 1000 years between the second coming of Christ and the Judgment before the New Heaven and Earth are created. Just that simply. So you might point out the difficulty that you see. The everlasting throng of David would have to be in the New Heaven and Earth. The Revelation is silant on this.
          Last edited by 37818; 07-23-2017, 11:34 AM.
          . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
            I'm teaching a Sunday School class for the month of July, and I am teaching on Revelation. My source material is Revelation Four Views by Steve Gregg. I've already covered Spiritual/Idealism, Historicism, and Preterism. Since my church is a Futurist believing church as part of it's core doctrine, I am finishing up the next two Sundays with Futurism. Most of class is Pre-Trib, so I thought I would spend a little time on the arguments for and against those three views. I was curious to know what arguments for you futurist hold the most weight for your view? If I were a futurist (I am currently a Preterist but would not be opposed to a double fulfillment which would make me a bit of a hybrid), I would most likely hold to a post-trib view. But I'm certainly open to hearing what others think on the matter. I find the 1 Thessalonians 4:16 ("...for the dead in Christ will rise first...") and the passage in Rev 20:4 - 6 ("...This is the first resurrection...") to be problematic to Pre- and mid-trib views. What do you see as strengths and weaknesses of your view or others you do not hold?

            Thanks!

            What about those of us who are a-trib ? I did hear there was a fifth kind of trib, but I forget the details.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
              You or OBP can correct me but, I think that is amillenialism. They do not believe in a literal 1000 year reign, and that we are now in the "millennia"...therefore there would not be a future 7 year Tribulation. Most Preterists also do not believe in a future 7 year tribulation...they would say that Israel A.D. 66 - A.D. 73 was the Tribulation.
              As far as I can tell, amill was the default position throughout much of church history. Post-mill is a product of the Enlightenment, and suffered a rather serious shock in WW I.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

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              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                What about those of us who are a-trib ? I did hear there was a fifth kind of trib, but I forget the details.
                What does a-trib entail? I've never heard of it. Is the fifth kind the Pre-Wrath view? I'm still pretty firmly in the preterist camp.
                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                  What does a-trib entail? I've never heard of it. Is the fifth kind the Pre-Wrath view? I'm still pretty firmly in the preterist camp.
                  My mistake - I should have said a-mill, not a-trib. Apart from that confusion (for which, my apologies), the question can stand, since amillennialism is a belief about eschatology.

                  I suspect your suggestion about that fifth view is correct.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                    What about those of us who are a-trib ? I did hear there was a fifth kind of trib, but I forget the details.
                    I just wanted to thank you for filling up my queue with an entire page of year old threads again.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Pre-trib rapture rebuttal. The rapture will not take place before any of the dead in Christ are raised (1 Thessalonians 4:15). And the first resurrection does not take place until that last day (John 6:40) when the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6) begins.
                      . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Hi Littlejoe,

                        I've been away for ages, and just wanted to come back and stir the pot about Ezekiel's Magog prophecy, but your post caught my eye. It's a bit late to throw in my 2 cents, but figured I'd go for it anyway.

                        I am a Pre-Trib, Pre-Millennial Futurist but see a dual-fulfillment of Matt. 24 in that Christ clearly predicted the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, yet also referenced an unprecedented tribulation period (Matt 24:15-30) where the antichrist spoken of in Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks defiles the rebuilt 3rd temple immediately prior to His 2nd Coming (similar to where Isaiah 61 spoke of Christ's 2 comings in the one passage - the 1st Coming, where Jesus came "to preach good news to the poor" and "proclaim the year of the Lord's favour"; the 2nd coming where Jesus proclaims "the Day of Vengeance of our God." Note that when Jesus quoted His fulfillment of the passage as recorded in Luke 4:16-21 that He stopped reading in the middle of the sentence. Why? Because the rest of it would not be fulfilled for another 2,000+ years).

                        One of the main problems with the Post-Trib view is that if the rapture is simultaneous with the 2nd Coming, then the separation between believers and unbelievers takes place instantaneously. But after Christ's return, one of His first actions is to separate the believing sheep from the non-believing goats (as recorded in Matt 25). How can this be if the separation has already taken place at His coming? In addition, there will be millions of people born during Christ's 1,000 year Millennial rule, yet Jesus has already told us that in the resurrection we will not be married or given in marriage in our new immortal bodies. If all believers have been raptured at the 2nd coming and all the non-believers are destroyed, who is left to repopulate the planet?

                        The Pre-Trib rapture allows for people to come to believe during the 7 years (by the preaching of the angel in Rev 14 with the everlasting gospel, the 2 prophets in Israel in Rev 11, and the 144,000 Jews redeemed in Rev 14 who are instantly converted at the start). These believers will not become members of the Church (because the Body of Christ will have been completed at the rapture), but they will be saved, and of those who survive the tribulation period, they will enter the kingdom in their mortal bodies and raise families for a thousand years.

                        I understand the 1st Resurrection to take place in steps. The first stage takes place at the rapture just prior to the beginning of the final 7 years of Daniel's prophecy; then the 2 witnesses at the mid-point of the tribulation; the 144,000 Jews who appear in heaven; and finally the tribulation believers put to death by the antichrist together with all the Old Testament saints from Adam's day to Christ's 2nd Advent. Just before the final Great White Throne judgment and the creation of the New Heavens and Earth, I expect the saved believers from the Millennium will also be given their immortal bodies, though this is not explicitly stated.

                        As an afterthought, one of the main problems I have with the Preterist view that Daniel's prophecy of the antichrist defiling the temple was fulfilled in 70 AD, is that since they do not recognize the 70th week as being future, they are forced to consider it as following immediately after the 69th week (when the Messiah is put to death). This would mean 1) that the goals of the 70 weeks as stated in Daniel 9:24 would not have been met (this could only be accomplished by de-literalizing the meaning - ie. I don't see that the Jews have finished their transgression since they still haven't accepted their Messiah and they certainly aren't experiencing everlasting righteousness in any real sense today), and 2) they must end the 490 year span no more than 7 years after Christ's crucifixion. Even if dated at 33 AD (I think it was in 30 AD myself), that would mean the prophecy was concluded in 40 AD - a date of no dramatic significance. Not only that, it would mean that Daniel's prophecy spoke about the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in 70 AD which occurred 40 YEARS OUTSIDE THE STATED SCOPE OF THE PROPHECY. I am aware of no scriptural precedent for such an assumption.

                        At least with the Futurist view, the 70th week has been postponed (gaps in prophecy being a legitimate observation, as already noted above with Isa. 61) and by the time it is completed (including the building of the 3rd temple, the future antichrist defiling it, Israel coming to accept Christ at His 2nd Coming) all the promises of Daniel 9:24 will have been literally accomplished. Israel's rebellion will be over, they will experience everlasting righteousness, the antichrist will have been defeated, prophecy would be fulfilled and the new Holy of Holies anointed with Christ's presence. And as icing on the cake, all the events occur in the order predicted in the prophecy.
                        Last edited by xcav8tor; 01-13-2019, 05:32 PM.

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