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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


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However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

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Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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Your best arguments for: Pret-rib, Mid-trib, Post-Trib

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  • Your best arguments for: Pret-rib, Mid-trib, Post-Trib

    I'm teaching a Sunday School class for the month of July, and I am teaching on Revelation. My source material is Revelation Four Views by Steve Gregg. I've already covered Spiritual/Idealism, Historicism, and Preterism. Since my church is a Futurist believing church as part of it's core doctrine, I am finishing up the next two Sundays with Futurism. Most of class is Pre-Trib, so I thought I would spend a little time on the arguments for and against those three views. I was curious to know what arguments for you futurist hold the most weight for your view? If I were a futurist (I am currently a Preterist but would not be opposed to a double fulfillment which would make me a bit of a hybrid), I would most likely hold to a post-trib view. But I'm certainly open to hearing what others think on the matter. I find the 1 Thessalonians 4:16 ("...for the dead in Christ will rise first...") and the passage in Rev 20:4 - 6 ("...This is the first resurrection...") to be problematic to Pre- and mid-trib views. What do you see as strengths and weaknesses of your view or others you do not hold?

    Thanks!

    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

  • #2
    One important text with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is v.15, ". . . we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall *not in any way precede them which are asleep. . . ." Dead in Christ include believers who died during the persecution called the tribulation, Revelation 20:4, ". . . the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. . . ." And v.5 ". . . This [is] the first resurrection." Paul also writes of it this way, ". . . We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." -- 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. Note the order, "the dead shall rise" followed by "we shall be changed." And there are more arguments.

    *ου μη φθασωμεν
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      One important text with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is v.15, ". . . we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall *not in any way precede them which are asleep. . . ." Dead in Christ include believers who died during the persecution called the tribulation, Revelation 20:4, ". . . the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. . . ." And v.5 ". . . This [is] the first resurrection." Paul also writes of it this way, ". . . We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." -- 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. Note the order, "the dead shall rise" followed by "we shall be changed." And there are more arguments.

      *ου μη φθασωμεν
      But you assume your conclusion here. You assume because they are beheaded for their witness, (et al) therefore there are people saved during the tribulation when there are no Christians left to witness to them and no Holy Spirit to convict or lead them to Christ. That argument is in no way conclusive and does not diminish the more likely scenario that Christians will go through the tribulation with the rest of the world.
      Last edited by Littlejoe; 07-18-2017, 11:44 PM.
      "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

      "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

      Comment


      • #4
        I either read that book (4 views) or a similar one many years ago, that went through the various end-time views. I started as a futurist and then after reading that book and being exposed to various other views on tweb, I came to the conclusion that I am agnostic about the end-times. All of the views seem to have good reasoning behind them and are logical. Any of them could be true as far as I can tell.

        My thinking is that, either I will live to find out, or I will die and meet Jesus personally. Either way I will meet Jesus.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          I either read that book (4 views) or a similar one many years ago, that went through the various end-time views. I started as a futurist and then after reading that book and being exposed to various other views on tweb, I came to the conclusion that I am agnostic about the end-times. All of the views seem to have good reasoning behind them and are logical. Any of them could be true as far as I can tell.

          My thinking is that, either I will live to find out, or I will die and meet Jesus personally. Either way I will meet Jesus.
          You're a "Pan-millennialist"...you believe it will all pan out in the end!
          "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

          "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
            But you assume your conclusion here. You assume because they are beheaded for their witness, (et al) therefore there are people saved during the tribulation when there are no Christians left to witness to them and no Holy Spirit to convict or lead them to Christ. That argument is in no way conclusive and does not diminish the more likely scenario that Christians will go through the tribulation with the rest of the world.
            One of the chief problems are the presuppositions that one already has. It clouds what one hears when one hears another's arguments. That is why it makes it so hard to even change one's own view, let alone persuading another person.

            1 Thessalonians 4:15 teaches that in no way will the living be raptured (v.16) until the dead in Christ are resurrected. That means all the dead in Christ, not just some who happen to be dead in Christ, then, more to die latter. See 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

            If one understands the gathering of the elect (Matthew 24:31) to refer to the resurrection and rapture, that takes place after the "tribulation" verse 29.

            Jesus as intercessor enters the presence of God "once for all" (Hebrews 9:12, 24) until His second coming (v.28).

            There are more arguments.
            Last edited by 37818; 07-19-2017, 09:38 AM.
            . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              One of the chief problems are the presuppositions that one already has. It clouds what one hears when one hears another's arguments. That is why it makes it so hard to even change one's own view, let alone persuading another person.

              1 Thessalonians 4:15 teaches that in no way will the living be raptured (v.16) until the dead in Christ are resurrected. That means all the dead in Christ, not just some who happen to be dead in Christ, then, more to die latter. See 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

              If one understands the gathering of the elect (Matthew 24:31) to refer to the resurrection and rapture, that takes place after the "tribulation" verse 29.

              Jesus as intercessor enters the presence of God "once for all" (Hebrews 9:12, 24) until His second coming (v.28).

              There are more arguments.
              Obviously I misread your post...for that I apologize. I'm so used to (because of the church I'm in and the friends I have) to hearing the Pre-Trib viewpoint I read that into your post. You are obviously a post-trib advocate...no?
              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                Obviously I misread your post...for that I apologize. I'm so used to (because of the church I'm in and the friends I have) to hearing the Pre-Trib viewpoint I read that into your post. You are obviously a post-trib advocate...no?
                Not to be a problem.
                Yes, I am a post-trib pre-wrath advocate. I deliberately did not say so. My intention was two fold. One is the problem of presuppositions. And that the holy scripture teachings should be the basis of our belief not our presuppositions we might read into it.
                . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                Comment


                • #9
                  No Pre or Mid Trib folks here?
                  "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                  "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    Not to be a problem.
                    Yes, I am a post-trib pre-wrath advocate. I deliberately did not say so. My intention was two fold. One is the problem of presuppositions. And that the holy scripture teachings should be the basis of our belief not our presuppositions we might read into it.
                    I was under the impression that Post-trib and pre-wrath were a bit mutually exclusive? As most scholars have the 2nd half of the Trib as the Wrath of God period. How is this different than Mid trib?
                    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      How about an a-trib?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I was pre-trib when I got here. I read a book on pre-wrath, and was wholly unimpressed. I looked into Preterism, but just couldn't process today's cesspool with the Millennial Reign of Christ. I see things like God taking His faithful out after sending messengers to get them and preach repentance, but other verses, like Rev 20 1-5 seem to discount mid-trib. Like Sparko, I'm pan-Trib Pre-millennial.
                        That's what
                        - She

                        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                        Stephen R. Donaldson

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Faber View Post
                          How about an a-trib?
                          That comes last...I assume you mean amillennial?
                          "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                          "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                            I was pre-trib when I got here. I read a book on pre-wrath, and was wholly unimpressed. I looked into Preterism, but just couldn't process today's cesspool with the Millennial Reign of Christ.
                            That's why I'm a-mill rather than post-mill.

                            I had already rejected pre-trib when I got here, after reading a book promoting pre-trib over mid- and post-trib and coming away wholly unimpressed; I had been raised pre-trib, but never been exposed to other POV before that.
                            Last edited by One Bad Pig; 07-20-2017, 11:12 AM.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

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                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                              That comes last...I assume you mean amillennial?
                              No, I mean I don't believe in a future 7-year great tribulation.

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