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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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The Woman

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  • The Woman

    It really seems to me like the following two women are actually the same person. Obviously, they are both women. One goes into the wilderness for a while. The other one is found out in the wilderness. Also, the first woman escapes for a time. Unless the second woman is her, then we never hear from her again. It seems like we would want to find out what happens to the first one, and the book would want to tell us.

    Revelation 12:13
    And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    Revelation 17:3-6
    So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: and upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.


    Furthermore, I find that this passage undermines the position that the woman stands for Jerusalem, or Judaism. Why would Jerusalem be found out in the "wilderness"? If anything, the general preterist idea that the world revolves around Jerusalem would seem make Jerusalem the center of the world, rather than the wilderness. Finally, if the woman refers to the early church, or something along those lines, then this passage would line up with 2 Thessalonians 2. In that passage, Paul predicts a "falling away" involving the "temple," and elsewhere he refers to the church as the temple. So the Revelation passages could be referring to the corruption of the church.

    2 Thesslonians 2:3-4
    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


    1 Corinthians 3:16-17
    Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


    Elsewhere, the writer of Revelation (arguably) refers to an individual church as a woman. And there are also the numerous passages which speak of all believers collectively as the bride of Christ.

    2 John 1:1
    The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; 2 for the truth’s sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.

  • #2
    Don't forget Rev 18 in the equation? Rev 18 is the interpretative catalyst of what the Rev harlot is.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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    • #3
      Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

      This one seems the clearest. It's another one that the Babylon=Jerusalem people have to really twist.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
        Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

        This one seems the clearest. It's another one that the Babylon=Jerusalem people have to really twist.
        Not really.
        Rev. 11:7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that is prophetically called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

        Was their Lord crucified in Rome?
        Rev. 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. God remembered great Babylon and gave her the wine-cup of the fury of his wrath.

        Ezek. 5:1 You, son of man, take a sharp sword; as a barber’s razor shall you take it to you, and shall cause it to pass on your head and on your beard: then take balances to weigh, and divide the hair. 2 A third part shall you burn in the fire in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled; and you shall take a third part, and strike with the sword round about it; and a third part you shall scatter to the wind, and I will draw out a sword after them. 3 You shall take of it a few in number, and bind them in your skirts. 4 Of these again shall you take, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; from it shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel. 5 Thus says the Lord Yahweh: This is Jerusalem; I have set her in the midst of the nations, and countries are round about her. 6 She has rebelled against my ordinances in doing wickedness more than the nations, and against my statutes more than the countries that are round about her; for they have rejected my ordinances, and as for my statutes, they have not walked in them. 7 Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; 8 therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you in the sight of the nations. 9 I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations. 10 Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of you, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments on you; and the whole remnant of you will I scatter to all the winds. 11 Therefore, as I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely, because you have defiled my sanctuary with all your detestable things, and with all your abominations, therefore will I also diminish you; neither shall my eye spare, and I also will have no pity. 12 A third part of you shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of you; and a third part shall fall by the sword round about you; and a third part I will scatter to all the winds, and will draw out a sword after them.


        Rev. 17:18 And the woman that you saw is the great city which has dominion (βασιλείαν) over the kings of the earth.

        Via Accordance, from Revelation: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary (The Anchor Bible, 1975), by J. Massyngberde Ford:
        Verse. 18 explains that the woman isthe great city,” a phrase already used of Jerusalem, in 11:8, 16:19. The image recalls IV Ezra 9:38–10:24. Here the prophet sees a woman mourning; her clothes are torn and there are ashes upon her head. She has lost her son on his wedding night, a son for whom she had waited for thirty years. The prophet reproaches her for mourning in the light of the desolation of Jerusalem, but as he looks at her, her countenance changes and becomes brilliant. Then she is no longer visible to him but instead there is a city built with large foundations. The angel then explains to the prophet that the woman whom he saw was Zion. Now he sees her as a built city (IV Ezra 10:25–49). The angel explains different details in the vision. But what is of interest for our apocalypse is the fact that the son symbolized “the (divine) dwelling in Jerusalem” (vs. 48) and his entry into the marriage chamber and his death represented the fall of Jerusalem. The importance of the IV Ezra vision is that it gives us an example of a vision in the apocalyptic era which symbolizes both the fall and the rise of Jerusalem. In the same way, Rev 17 looks forward to the new Jerusalem in ch. 21. However, the description in IV Ezra 10:21–24 of the fate which befell Jerusalem is akin to that which we shall find in Rev 18; see Jacob M. Myers I & II Esdras, AB, vol. 42 (1974), 266, 273–74, 279.

        From The Days of Vengeance: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation (Dominion Press, 1987), by David Chilton:
        18 ....The angel now identifies the Harlot as the Great City, which, as we have seen, St. John uses as a term for Jerusalem, where the Lord was crucified (11:8; 16:19). Moreover,, says the angel, this City has a kingdom [βασιλείαν/dominion, RSV/Ford] over all the kings of the earth. It is perhaps this verse, more that any other, which has confused expositors into supposing, against all other evidence, that the Harlot is Rome. If the City is Jerusalem, how can she be said to wield this kind of worldwide political power? The answer is that Revelation is not a book about politics; it is a book about the Covenant. Jerusalem did reign over all the nations. She did possess a Kingdom which was above all the kingdoms of the world. She had a covenantal priority over the kingdoms of the earth. Israel was a Kingdom of priests (Ex. 19:6), exercising a priestly ministry of guardianship, instruction, and intercession on behalf of the nations of the world. When Israel was faithful to God, offering up sacrifices for the nations, the world was at peace; when Israel broke the Covenant, the world was in turmoil. The Gentile nations recognized this (1 Kings 10:24; Ezra 1; 407; cf. Rom. 2:17-24)* Yet, perversely, they would seek to seduce Israel to commit whoredom against the Covenant ― and when she did, they would turn on her and destroy her. That pattern was repeated several times over until Israel's final excommunication in A.D. 70, when Jerusalem was destroyed. The desolation of the Harlot was God's final sign that the Kingdom had been transferred to His new people, the Church (Matt. 21:43; 1 Pe. 2:9; Rev. 11:19; 15:5; 21:3). The Kingdom over the kingdoms will never again be possessed by national Israel.
        * Josephus points out repeatedly that the nations had historically recognized the sanctity and centrality of the Temple: "This celebrated place ... was esteemed holy by all mankind" (The Jewish War, v.i.3; cf. v.ix.4; v.xiii.6). In fact, the action of Jewish rebels, in the summer of A.D. 66, of halting the daily sacrifices for the Emperor (in violation, Josephs points out, of long-standing practice) was the single event which finally precipitated the Roman war against the Jews (ii.xvii.2-4). Even at the very end, as Titus prepared to raze the city to the ground, he was still pleading with the Jewish priests to offer up the sacrifices, which by now had been entirely discontinued (vi.ii.1).
        Last edited by John Reece; 03-27-2014, 06:54 PM.

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        • #5
          I've read Chilton's explanation before. I do not find it satisfactory. The Jews absolutely did not have any reign over the nations, spiritual or otherwise. God only gave the Jews power when they were obedient, not when they were wicked. And he took their kingdom away in the Old Testament because they were wicked. Saying that Jerusalem reigned over the kings of the earth seems incredibly weak.

          It is possible that Revelation 11:8 is referring to Jerusalem, and that there are two great cities. I'm still having a lot of trouble figuring out what Revelation 11 means -- under any interpretive scheme.

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          • #6
            Also, I've seen this idea in more than one place that the Jews were supposed to offer sacrifices, and then the gentile world would be at peace. Is that actually in the Bible somewhere?

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            • #7
              I don't know how anyone could argue that the Rev harlot is Jerusalem pre-70 CE when Rev 18:21-13 is clearly a finalized judgement. But it's par for the course I guess.
              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                I don't know how anyone could argue that the Rev harlot is Jerusalem pre-70 CE when Rev 18:21-13 is clearly a finalized judgement. But it's par for the course I guess.
                What do you mean by finalized judgment?

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                • #9
                  The location ceases to be inhabited.
                  "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by seanD View Post
                    The location ceases to be inhabited.
                    Ezekiel uses similar language about Tyre:
                    “For thus says the Lord God: When I make you a city laid waste, like the cities that are not inhabited, when I bring up the deep over you, and the great waters cover you, then I will make you go down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of old, and I will make you to dwell in the world below, among ruins from of old, with those who go down to the pit, so that you will not be inhabited; but I will set beauty in the land of the living. I will bring you to a dreadful end, and you shall be no more. Though you be sought for, you will never be found again, declares the Lord God.”
                    ...
                    The merchants among the peoples hiss at you;
                    you have come to a dreadful end
                    and shall be no more forever.
                    Tyre is currently an inhabited city.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Only you're presupposing that the prophecy of Tyre has completed its fulfillment.
                      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seanD View Post
                        Only you're presupposing that the prophecy of Tyre has completed its fulfillment.
                        And why should we presume the contrary?

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                        • #13
                          Because then it would rightly argued as a failed prophecy.
                          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by seanD View Post
                            Because then it would rightly argued as a failed prophecy.
                            Actually I don’t believe the Tyre passage you gave was analogous to the prophecy in Rev 18 in relation to Jerusalem. Even if we consider the prophecy about Tyre as a final past fulfillment, much of the fulfillment is true even today. Even though it is inhabited, it’s nowhere near the glory and strength it once was. Jerusalem, on the other hand, is not the same circumstance, in fact, one could argue the nation is even more powerful and globally influential than it was during its Roman captivity.
                            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              According to this website, the area covered by ancient mainland Tyre is now underwater.

                              https://www.apologeticspress.org/apc...3&article=1790

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