Announcement

Collapse

Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Another win for scriptual literalism

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by seanD View Post

    It's actually not the only biblical passage. Rev 8:12 is indication the earth spin will increase three times as fast.
    That is about dimming the sun and moon. Not speeding up the earth.

    If you're right and I'm wrong, it won't really matter, because things will get so bad, it'll be irrelevant. If you're wrong, like I said earlier, I'm definitely going to excoriate you mercilessly this time.
    You go right ahead. If we both end up suffering through the tribulation and the earth is spinning so fast that everything starts flying off into space, you can laugh at me and say "I told you so Sparko" as you fly into orbit.



    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      That is about dimming the sun and moon. Not speeding up the earth.

      You go right ahead. If we both end up suffering through the tribulation and the earth is spinning so fast that everything starts flying off into space, you can laugh at me and say "I told you so Sparko" as you fly into orbit.

      Rest assured, it'll be more than "I told you so."

      Even if the earth rotation progresses by mere milliseconds, it'll be enough. The secular heathens will naturally blame it on their own doomsday cult climate change, and so this will likely be the next global crisis that stops the world like the covid pandemic. They're already making moves to alter how we produce food (i.,e. farming) based on climate change. This will just give their agenda more of a sense of urgency.
      "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by seanD View Post

        Rest assured, it'll be more than "I told you so."

        Even if the earth rotation progresses by mere milliseconds, it'll be enough. The secular heathens will naturally blame it on their own doomsday cult climate change, and so this will likely be the next global crisis that stops the world like the covid pandemic. They're already making moves to alter how we produce food (i.,e. farming) based on climate change. This will just give their agenda more of a sense of urgency.
        Like I said the rotation already changes slightly all the time. And if we are going by the solar day, it varies by minutes throughout the year. and if it does continue, all they will need to do is subtract a leap second.

        This article explains the reason for the speed change.
        https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamieca...h=56ebe4265998

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post

          Like I said the rotation already changes slightly all the time. And if we are going by the solar day, it varies by minutes throughout the year. and if it does continue, all they will need to do is subtract a leap second.

          This article explains the reason for the speed change.
          https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamieca...h=56ebe4265998
          From the sources I've seen, the earth's spin was slowing until recently. There are theories they've been suggesting, but they don't exactly know why the speed has increased. And I never said there weren't natural processes involved. If it keeps progressing (like I believe it will), they'll likely use climate change.
          Last edited by seanD; 08-05-2022, 01:52 PM.
          "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by seanD View Post

            No it doesn't. From the sources I've seen, the earth's spin was slowing until recently. There are theories they've been suggesting, but they don't exactly know why the speed has changed. If it keeps progressing (like I believe it will), they'll likely use climate change.
            Well I am just gonna let you continue with your delusion, Sean. I tried.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post

              Well I am just gonna let you continue with your delusion, Sean. I tried.
              And I'll just continue letting you be the know-nothing turd that you are.
              "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by seanD View Post

                And I'll just continue letting you be the know-nothing turd that you are.
                Right. So how many people have you convinced of your dumbass theory now? Zero?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                  Right. So how many people have you convinced of your dumbass theory now? Zero?
                  I'm not really interested in convincing anyone. I use this forum mainly to post my ideas out loud when I'm not working, and that's about it.

                  I'm definitely not at all perfect, and even if I'm wrong about this, it won't matter because, as I said before, things are going to get so progressively bad and crazy in the world (like we're seeing now) that it won't really matter. At least I get most things right. You get absolutely nothing right, and what makes you such an irritating piece of crap is you come across as this know-it-all jackass with insults and smears and yet you still manage to get everything wrong.


                  "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by seanD View Post

                    I'm not really interested in convincing anyone. I use this forum mainly to post my ideas out loud when I'm not working, and that's about it.

                    I'm definitely not at all perfect, and even if I'm wrong about this, it won't matter because, as I said before, things are going to get so progressively bad and crazy in the world (like we're seeing now) that it won't really matter. At least I get most things right. You get absolutely nothing right, and what makes you such an irritating piece of crap is you come across as this know-it-all jackass with insults and smears and yet you still manage to get everything wrong.

                    I have seen some others on facebook with similar theories so it appears this isn't something you came up with on your own. It's a silly theory seand. On par with Darfius' claim that the Mandella effect is real and Satan's tool to "fool the elect"

                    The plain reading of the verse is that God will shorten the period of tribulation (fewer days, rather than shorter days)


                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                      I have seen some others on facebook with similar theories so it appears this isn't something you came up with on your own. It's a silly theory seand. On par with Darfius' claim that the Mandella effect is real and Satan's tool to "fool the elect"

                      The plain reading of the verse is that God will shorten the period of tribulation (fewer days, rather than shorter days)
                      I don't feel at all that this theory is on par with the Mandela Effect theory because that theory has a reasonable psychological explanation behind it. We also don't know if this rotation anomaly will progress or not, so it's an unknown right now.

                      As I said, I don't consider a theory viable without thinking it through first, so I'm well aware of what the theological explanations are for Matt 24:22. Most futurists argue that it's either reference to the rapture or that God will cut the tribulation itself short. Both arguments must assume a necessity to save Christians ("for the sake of the elect"), which makes both arguments fall miserably short of logic and theology (and scripture in the case of the rapture) when they're broken down and dissected.

                      I'm offering an alternative interpretation that makes the most (or at least the least bad) theological sense. And it appears to be backed by scientific implications of a strange anomaly occurring with earth's rotation. Whether or not that anomaly progresses in the future remains to be seen.

                      Last edited by seanD; 08-08-2022, 10:29 AM.
                      "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Another win for literalism.

                        It is predicted that the two main rivers (Tigris & Euphrates Rivers) will be completely dry in 2040, according to several studies conducted using only data analysis.

                        https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/20.....05H/abstract

                        Yeah, John could have told you that 2,000 years ago without scientific models...

                        The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east.

                        Though the OP's interpretation of Matthew 24:22 ("shortened days") remains to be seen, another eschatological passage that is pretty much no longer in dispute is Revelation 16:12

                        I imagine it would have been absurd for someone in the first century to predict the "great" river completely drying up, not just because of the fact it was a subject of promises given by God to the Jews through Abraham that the Jews were undoubtedly hoping would eventually be reclaimed (Genesis 15:18; Deuteronomy 11:24), and we clearly see from multiple passages that the author of Rev is certainly not indifferent to Jewish culture nor antisemitic (i.e. Rev 7:4-8), but the fact the river was such a vital source of subsistence to his ancient world.

                        Just to show you an example of an interpretation opposite of literal, I give you the king of non-literalism preterist himself Kenneth Gentry's interpretation of Rev 16:12, where he argues it's just a metaphor expressing the speedy way Rome was able to deploy its troops from the Euphrates to assist Vespasian during the 70 AD war.



                        I guess it would be pretty absurd for some Christians to believe God capable of actually achieving such an incredible event, and thus readily chucked it into the symbolism dumpster. But that no longer needs to be the case. They can now rest assured they have the blessing of all mighty science.

                        "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          Another win for literalism.

                          It is predicted that the two main rivers (Tigris & Euphrates Rivers) will be completely dry in 2040, according to several studies conducted using only data analysis.

                          https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/20.....05H/abstract

                          Yeah, John could have told you that 2,000 years ago without scientific models...

                          The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east.

                          Though the OP's interpretation of Matthew 24:22 ("shortened days") remains to be seen, another eschatological passage that is pretty much no longer in dispute is Revelation 16:12

                          I imagine it would have been absurd for someone in the first century to predict the "great" river completely drying up, not just because of the fact it was a subject of promises given by God to the Jews through Abraham that the Jews were undoubtedly hoping would eventually be reclaimed (Genesis 15:18; Deuteronomy 11:24), and we clearly see from multiple passages that the author of Rev is certainly not indifferent to Jewish culture nor antisemitic (i.e. Rev 7:4-8), but the fact the river was such a vital source of subsistence to his ancient world.

                          Just to show you an example of an interpretation opposite of literal, I give you the king of non-literalism preterist himself Kenneth Gentry's interpretation of Rev 16:12, where he argues it's just a metaphor expressing the speedy way Rome was able to deploy its troops from the Euphrates to assist Vespasian during the 70 AD war.



                          I guess it would be pretty absurd for some Christians to believe God capable of actually achieving such an incredible event, and thus readily chucked it into the symbolism dumpster. But that no longer needs to be the case. They can now rest assured they have the blessing of all mighty science.
                          I'll note for the record that the following sentence is "However, to date, no reliable hydrological model for the Tigris and Euphrates river basin has been setup yet." The abstract does not reveal the results of the paper, which does attempt to set up such a model. Further, climate change predictions are notoriously not borne out by subsequent events.

                          Fail harder, bro.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            I'll note for the record that the following sentence is "However, to date, no reliable hydrological model for the Tigris and Euphrates river basin has been setup yet." The abstract does not reveal the results of the paper, which does attempt to set up such a model. Further, climate change predictions are notoriously not borne out by subsequent events.

                            Fail harder, bro.
                            Do you suppose the scientists were using Rev 16:12 in their models, or was it just a coincidence?

                            Instead of considering it a "fail," I'd rather give God the glory for his control over the events of mankind and the accuracy of the 2,000 year old passage he gave to John. I consider it a win for the bible, but that's just me.

                            "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I would always read Matthew 24:7 and wonder how in our modern technological world, and where we have an abundance of food and any number of innovative means to produce it, we could possibly face worldwide famine? Maybe it is just symbolic or localized only to Israel in the first century.

                              Yet here we are in a literal "global food crisis."

                              I guess, unlike some Christians, I actually get thrilled when God's word literally comes to pass no matter how impossible it seems to us as we read it. Another passage that left me puzzled is Rev 6:5-6...

                              When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, “Come!” I looked, and behold, a black horse, and the one who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine.”
                              I've always considered this to be inflation or even hyperinflation (I never could figure out what "hurt not the oil and the wine" meant, but I'm sure it'll make sense soon), but I never could figure out how this could possibly happen worldwide since countries all have their separate currencies, all with their own monetary systems and a variety of different monetary policies they implement at different times.

                              Maybe the preterists are correct, because how could inflation literally happen worldwide, and especially in our modern innovative and technological generation? Well, here we are (btw, if you want to know the real evil culprit behind this, I bolded it)......

                              ‘Enormous’ fertilizer shortage spells disaster for global food crisis

                              High fertilizer prices have also upset the delicate balance between ensuring that farmers get paid well enough for their produce while food is affordable enough for consumers. If fertilizer prices remain high because of high energy costs, then farmers of crops like wheat will struggle to cover their costs and food prices will rise even more, extending the hunger crisis.

                              High energy costs have already been disrupting the production of fertilizers in Europe. Norwegian giant Yara delivered 22 percent less fertilizer to farmers in the second quarter of 2022 because of high prices.

                              "There is a clear risk of nitrogen shortages and further price spikes if the gas situation in Europe deteriorates further," Yara CEO Svein Tore Holsether said last month.

                              Ahead of a winter when Russia may well entirely switch off the EU's natural gas supply, Brussels has said that governments should prioritize supplying gas to "societally critical" industries like food production.

                              But the answer to the crisis isn't simply to produce more fertilizers, according to some experts, especially since overuse can lead to environmental degradation. Many of the nutrients for crops end up in waterways and can upset fragile ecosystems and wipe out aquatic life.

                              The EU's Green Deal chief Frans Timmermans has said the EU should use the wartime imperative to become independent from Russian energy, and lean into its goal to limit the overuse of fertilizers by adopting more environmentally-friendly agricultural practices.

                              Across Africa, farmers have been made particularly vulnerable to the crisis by decades of policies designed to promote the use of artificial fertilizers instead of more resilient farming methods they had been practicing for generations, according to Million Belay from the Alliance for Food Sovereignty in Africa.

                              Even in countries like Morocco and Egypt, both leading chemical fertilizer producers, high prices have taken their toll on the poorest of farmers.

                              “For farmers who have been led down the path of applying more and more chemical fertilizers on their soil, this is a real crisis," Belay said.

                              He added that for places like North Africa, "it is going to be a disaster.”




                              "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                The one thing I seem to recall hearing about "oil and wine" is those are rich people's items. It then becomes symbolic that the rich aren't as affected as everyone else.

                                Disclaimer: my memory may be off on this.
                                "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                                "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by seanD, 08-01-2022, 11:48 PM
                                45 responses
                                290 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post seanD
                                by seanD
                                 
                                Started by Dave L, 01-03-2022, 06:30 AM
                                52 responses
                                497 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Faber
                                by Faber
                                 
                                Started by seanD, 02-05-2014, 02:15 PM
                                65 responses
                                9,928 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post seanD
                                by seanD
                                 
                                Working...
                                X