Russia, the king of the North, the Bear

[seanD]

Be assured, I will in future be careful to wait for the full ten minutes to elapse before responding to anything that you post.

No, you edited out my comma at the end of "eventually" and added a period. And I'm guessing you did that because you omitted the part where I pretty much conceded your argument about how Russia is doing in the war: "but so far it's a slow grind and they'll likely be so beaten up -- physically, emotionally, and economically."

Please don't be that slimy and dishonest. Thanks.

[tabibito]

I don't know who to believe in regards to the how the war is going.

My point though still stands. Russia, in light of the current war in Ukraine, doesn't seem like it will have any power or spirit left to wage a war like that described in Ezekiel. Whether they're winning now or not is beside the point.

Btw, please don't manipulate my texts. Thanks.

Be assured, I will in future be careful to wait for the full ten minutes to elapse before responding to anything that you post.

[seanD]

So I had thought until today. Reports that they have lost an estimated 1/3 of the ground forces already give cause for doubt. How many more can they lose before they find themselves fighting a defensive war?

I don't know who to believe in regards to the how the war is going.

My point though still stands. Russia, in light of the current war in Ukraine, doesn't seem like it will have any power or spirit left to wage a war like that described in Ezekiel. Whether they're winning now or not is beside the point.

Btw, please don't manipulate my texts. Thanks.

[tabibito]

Also, Russia already has their hands full in Ukraine, and (barring a nuclear holocaust) Russia will undoubtedly win that war eventually.

So I had thought until today. Reports that they have lost an estimated 1/3 of the ground forces already give cause for doubt. How many more can they lose before they find themselves fighting a defensive war?

[seanD]

Yes of course don't we all?

I do not believe we are living in the millennial reign of the Lord Jesus Christ at all.
I do not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture.

I see the pre-trib and the preterist views as the extremes with flimsy scriptural support.

I believe we will be caught up (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air at the last trumpet.
I believe this will occur before the wrath of God is poured out.

Excellent. That's basically my view.

Now, if you hold the belief that the thousand year reign of Christ is future, then Rev 20:8-9 seems to plainly state that the war of Ezekiel 38 occurs after that period, not before, unless we assume the same thing happens a second time with the same exact players, which seems pretty contrived since that event is not described the same anywhere in the Olivet Discourse (i.e Luke 21:20) or anywhere else in the NT (i.e. Rev 11).

Also, Russia already has their hands full in Ukraine, and (barring a nuclear holocaust) Russia will undoubtedly win that war eventually, but so far it's a slow grind and they'll likely be so beaten up -- physically, emotionally, and economically -- that's it's extremely difficult to believe, even if they had help from other eastern countries, they'd actually go on to wage yet another war that would include the US and all other western allies against them. It just doesn't seem very plausible in our present time and situation.

[Esther]

Just out of curiosity, Esther, do you hold a permilliennialist belief?

Yes of course don't we all?

I do not believe we are living in the millennial reign of the Lord Jesus Christ at all.
I do not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture.

I see the pre-trib and the preterist views as the extremes with flimsy scriptural support.

I believe we will be caught up (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air at the last trumpet.
I believe this will occur before the wrath of God is poured out.

[seanD]

In the Bible, Russia is the king of the North (North of Israel) also understood to represent the Bear. I heard such an interesting observation on one of the Christian channels, that an injured bear is far more dangerous than one that is not. Putin is injured I think. The Ezekiel 38 war could well be on its way.

Just out of curiosity, Esther, do you hold a permilliennialist belief?

[3 Resurrections]

For the Gog and Magog prophecy from Ezekiel 38-39 which was duplicated in Revelation 20, those "four quarters of the earth" out of which Gog's army was gathered was the same as the "four corners" of THE LAND OF ISRAEL in particular, as found in Ezekiel 7:2-3. God prophesied against the land of Israel, saying, "An end, the end is come upon the FOUR CORNERS OF THE LAND; now is the end come upon thee..."

Gog would come out of his place in the north parts of ISRAEL, which would be "Galilee of the nations" - the northernmost quarter of Israel. Galilee was known to be the location in the far north of Israel where rebels against Rome originated, such as Judas of Galilee who had made insurrection against Rome in Acts 5:37. (These four quarters of the land of Israel are a bit different than other scripture predictions which involve "the four winds of heaven", which would tend to have a global application.)

Scripture never says that Gog the chief prince would have to be in league with the entire nations of Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, etc. In the LXX for Ezekiel 38:5 , all it says is that individuals who had descended from these countries would be present within Gog's army, ("Persian, Ethiopians, Libyans" etc.) which was the case with Simon bar Giora's army numbering 40,000 which included mixed nationalities culled from the nations around Israel in those first century days.

That Zealot rebellious activity was already circulating in Israel in Christ's days, which is why Christ made mention of that increasing civil strife within Israel itself . Christ asked, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division. For FROM HENCEFORTH there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father;...." (Luke 12:51-53). This division among families was more than just OC Judaism versus Christ's NC disciples. Even in Christ's days on earth, those in Israel wishing to preserve the status quo with Rome in charge became increasingly opposed to those with Zealot sympathies who wished to rebel and cast off their Roman governance. This division in families over this issue extended even to the high priesthood's family (the high priest Ananias who put Paul on trial, and his son Eleazar, governor of the temple in AD 66 who favored the rebels against his father's wishes).

Gog the chief prince (Simon bar Giora) capitalized on this civil discord among Israelite families, and he recruited restless malcontents who wanted to see a change of governance in Israel by casting off the Roman yoke. The "every man's sword shall be against his brother" was the result of this internecine warfare in Israel in those first century days.

Anyone who thinks this battle of Gog is descriptive of modern warfare with horsemen, "all of them handling swords", with shields, bucklers, spears, bows and arrows, and hand-staves is strongly deluded. This was an ancient battle that has already taken place. The Zealot forces in Israel were well known for the distinctive, concealed curved daggers they carried (a "Sica"), and which is why the Zealots were nicknamed "sicarii". Swordsmanship was a notable feature of this Gog battle.

[Darfius]

Uh oh, 3 Resurrections broke out of Arkham Asylum again. That's my bat signal to come restore some sanity into the thread.

Most preterists have a problem seeing past one layer of prophecy into the multiple layers that exist, but 3 Resurrections can't even comprehend basic English. Galilee is not "a nation from the far north" and "Persia, Cush and Phut" were not allies of some Jewish rebel. That's why uppity women should stay out of theological debates and stick to the kitchen like the Bible commands them to. Read Proverbs 31 for your marching orders, 3 Resurrections, and leave the teaching to your superiors (men [in authority, not value]).

I detail who Gog is here.

Like Pharaoh, Caesar and "the ruler who will come", Gog is a title that can be inherited and so pulls double, triple, etc. duty, prophetically speaking. Antiochus Epiphanes was the first "ruler who will come" who pulled off the first abomination that caused desolation. There will be another.

The first giant claiming to be the deified ruler of Chaos incarnate was Nimrod, but the title eventually passed to Og, king of Bashan. Presumably they laid claim to this title as being the offspring of beings who were present when God brought order out of chaos at creation:

Scripture Verse: Job 38

1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:

2“Who is this who obscures My counsel

by words without knowledge?a

3Now brace yourselfb like a man;

I will question you, and you shall inform Me.c

4Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?

Tell Me, if you have understanding.

5Who fixed its measurements? Surely you know!

Or who stretched a measuring line across it?

6On what were its foundations set,

or who laid its cornerstone,d

7while the morning stars sang together

and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8Who enclosed the sea behind doors

when it burst forth from the womb,

9when I made the clouds its garment

and thick darkness its blanket,

10when I fixed its boundaries

and set in place its bars and doors,

11and I declared: ‘You may come this far, but no farther;

here your proud waves must stop’?

© Copyright Original Source

As mentioned in my post that I linked to, "the sea" is an allusion to primeval chaos in not only the Bible but the creation motifs of the cultures which surrounded Israel. That's why God calls "the sea" "proud" in verse 11. He's not talking about just water.

At any rate, it wouldn't have required much of a leap for the fallen angels who sired the Nephilim giants to claim that not only were they present at the creation of the earth but that they assisted and even played an integral role. Bashan, the site of Og's kingdom, was at the foot of Mt Hermon, which possesses a spring considered by the ancients to have its source in the primeval waters of the underworld. It is one of the primary tributaries of the Jordan river. It's not a coincidence that Mt Hermon is traditionally associated with the site the fallen angels "materialized" into the physical dimension to take human wives.

Though Og was "the last of the Rephaim", other giants--of smaller stature and so perhaps of more diluted "Nephilim blood"--are detailed in Scripture as having existed after him, most infamously Goliath. The Nephilim blood was never completely eradicated (part of the point of God's "genocidal" policies in the OT) and some tribes had higher concentrations (Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Cretans/Philistines, etc.) than others. Indeed, Daniel prophesies that in the last days, "they" will successfully intermingle their bloodline with regular folk (not appearing as freakish giants) while still remaining genetically distinct:

Scripture Verse: Daniel 2

⁴³ And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

© Copyright Original Source

Russia and China are not only "north" of Israel but "east". Cain went east of Eden after he killed Abel and he was the first of the Nephilim, though he was too dimwitted to organize the mass rebellion against God that his later descendant Nimrod managed. China is even named after Cain and their totem is the dragon. Nimrod refounded the cities of Cain and his seed after the Flood in homage.

The Russians (and Chinese) ultimately descend from the Scythians who descend from the Assyrians/Babylonians, so their military alliance possesses a lot of "Gog" blood, hence their inheritance of the first fulfillment of the "Gog" prophecy to kick off the end times. Later, the Antichrist will be an iteration of Gog and finally it will be the beast.

But the "Israel" that the Russian/Chinese "Gog" (and its "Persian" [Iranian] and "Cushite" [Islamic African/Yemenite nations] allies) attacks is primarily Ephraim/the West/America, not Judah/modern day Israel. Modern day Israel is certainly not a "nation without walls dwelling in safety", but rather a nation living under constant threat of annihilation with plenty of walls. America, on the other hand, is a nation of fat and happy "Christians" who think God is just fine with their backsliding and/or they'll be "raptured out" before they ever have to act like Christians and prove their faith. They also descend from Israel.

As for 3 Resurrection's claim that "brother against brother" implies a civil war, in one sense she is correct, but as usual she grossly misses the bigger picture. America is already in a cold civil war which if it goes hot will contribute to its susceptibility to outside invasion. But more importantly, the system resulting from the "new world order" which will emerge after World War 3 and the fall of America will result in a worldwide society where people will either sell their soul to the beast system or declare for the truth and Jesus Christ and be "betrayed unto death" by their own brothers:

Scripture Verse: Mark 13

¹² “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. ¹³ Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

© Copyright Original Source

[3 Resurrections]

The Ezekiel 38 battle led by the chief prince of Gog has long been over ever since AD 69-70. Gog is a reference to the nation of ISRAEL in Numbers 24:7-9 in the LXX. At any rate, we are told that in the battle of Gog against Israel, it would be characterized by a struggle when "every man's sword shall be against HIS BROTHER." (Ezekiel 39:21). Now, if Gog was going to come against Israel, and that battle would have BROTHERS engaged in fighting each other with swords, this was going to be a CIVIL WAR in Israel.

This CIVIL conflict in Israel took place from AD 66-70 between the various Zealot leaders that were trying to gain supremacy as the Messianic leader of the nation of Israel in Jerusalem. In AD 69, the Zealot leader, Simon bar Giora, who had the most numerous army of 40,000 among all the other Zealot contenders for the Messianic role, came and camped with his army outside the gates of Jerusalem. Simon bar Giora was eventually admitted into the city in AD 69 in the hopes that he would be the most promising leader to combat the approaching Roman army. He became a tyrant to his own people, and his army was decimated at the end by the Romans, with Simon the self-styled "King of Israel" being executed for his role in the rebellion against Rome.

The "chief prince of Gog" was prophesied to come out of his place in the "north parts". That "North part" was the northern quarter of the nation of ISRAEL - meaning Galilee of the Gentiles. And that location was actually the hotbed that the Zealot cause originated from. Simon bar Giora kept an arsenal of weaponry and supplies in caves near the city of Nain near Galilee until he was ready to come out of his place in those "North parts" to Jerusalem. He came with an army that was large enough to overcome all other Zealot leaders competing for the role of a military Messiah that would conquer Roman control of their nation.

The Gog battle featured ancient weaponry - not modern-day missiles. Horses, shields, bucklers, bows and arrows, hand-staves, spears, etc. Any wood-based weapons left from this ancient battle were going to be used for people's firewood for seven years following this battle in Israel, since Josephus said that the AD 66-70 conflict at Jerusalem had every tree cut down for 10 miles around the city to use in the battle to take that city of Jerusalem. Any trees used to build the siege wall that the Romans built to completely encircle the city would have been used for firewood after those days.

And it took seven literal months to bury all the dead human remains from that AD 66-70 war in Israel, with all of those recovered remains being buried in the Jordan Valley at the top of the Dead Sea, as Ezekiel 39:11 had prophesied.

[Thoughtful Monk]

Thanks!

One of the prophecy teachings mentioned that it never used to make sense why Russia would go to war with Israel until 10 years ago when Israel discovered vast amounts of natural gas.

It would make sense for Russia to go to war with Israel in support of their allies in region like Syria.

[Esther]

There is some plausibility about the identification with Russia, at least. Josephus (a few centuries later than Ezekiel, but this is at least more useful than speculating what might be north of Israel) argued that Magog was associated with the Scythians, whose traditional territory did in fact include parts what is now Russia and Ukraine. However, the focus of the prophecy is an attack on Israel, not one to the west, so I would be skeptical unless the course of the war rapidly changes.

https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/a...-gog-and-magog

Thanks!

One of the prophecy teachings mentioned that it never used to make sense why Russia would go to war with Israel until 10 years ago when Israel discovered vast amounts of natural gas.

[KingsGambit]

There is some plausibility about the identification with Russia, at least. Josephus (a few centuries later than Ezekiel, but this is at least more useful than speculating what might be north of Israel) argued that Magog was associated with the Scythians, whose traditional territory did in fact include parts what is now Russia and Ukraine. However, the focus of the prophecy is an attack on Israel, not one to the west, so I would be skeptical unless the course of the war rapidly changes.

https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/a...-gog-and-magog

[Thoughtful Monk]

In the Bible, Russia is the king of the North (North of Israel) also understood to represent the Bear. I heard such an interesting observation on one of the Christian channels, that an injured bear is far more dangerous than one that is not. Putin is injured I think. The Ezekiel 38 war could well be on its way.

It is certainly true an injured animal is more dangerous.

[rogue06]

Here is a link to gotquestions which I find concise. I have always taken for granted Russia is the king of the North in the Bible and the Bear.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Russia-end-times.html

It is the injured bear theory I heard in the past few days that I am finding interesting.

Interesting since Russia comes from "Rus" (rhymes with Bruce), the name of a group of Norse people, from which a group of warrior merchants took control of a large section of eastern Europe establishing their first capital in Kyiv (Ukraine), and started what was considered the first Eastern Slavic state. There does not seem much of a connection with the Hebrew word "Rosh" which means the top or beginning and Rus.

This is one of the few times I have to question gotquestions analysis.