Russia, the king of the North, the Bear

[Esther]

Excellent. That's basically my view.

Now, if you hold the belief that the thousand year reign of Christ is future, then Rev 20:8-9 seems to plainly state that the war of Ezekiel 38 occurs after that period, not before, unless we assume the same thing happens a second time with the same exact players, which seems pretty contrived since that event is not described the same anywhere in the Olivet Discourse (i.e Luke 21:20) or anywhere else in the NT (i.e. Rev 11).

Also, Russia already has their hands full in Ukraine, and (barring a nuclear holocaust) Russia will undoubtedly win that war eventually, but so far it's a slow grind and they'll likely be so beaten up -- physically, emotionally, and economically -- that's it's extremely difficult to believe, even if they had help from other eastern countries, they'd actually go on to wage yet another war that would include the US and all other western allies against them. It just doesn't seem very plausible in our present time and situation.

I have never thought of the Ezekiel 38 war as happening after the millennium but I suppose it could when all the armies gather against Israel?

Russia was so quiet for so long it seemed impossible it could play a significant role let alone that of being the king of the north marching against Israel.

[seanD]

I have never thought of the Ezekiel 38 war as happening after the millennium but I suppose it could when all the armies gather against Israel?

Russia was so quiet for so long it seemed impossible it could play a significant role let alone that of being the king of the north marching against Israel.

Rev 20:8-9 mentions the exact same war with Gog and Magog. The only logical conclusion for the premil is that either two Gog and Magog wars happen, or it's the same one. My main problem with the former argument is that this war is not mentioned anywhere else in the NT other than Rev 20:8-9.

[Darfius]

Excellent. That's basically my view.

Now, if you hold the belief that the thousand year reign of Christ is future, then Rev 20:8-9 seems to plainly state that the war of Ezekiel 38 occurs after that period, not before, unless we assume the same thing happens a second time with the same exact players, which seems pretty contrived since that event is not described the same anywhere in the Olivet Discourse (i.e Luke 21:20) or anywhere else in the NT (i.e. Rev 11).

Also, Russia already has their hands full in Ukraine, and (barring a nuclear holocaust) Russia will undoubtedly win that war eventually, but so far it's a slow grind and they'll likely be so beaten up -- physically, emotionally, and economically -- that's it's extremely difficult to believe, even if they had help from other eastern countries, they'd actually go on to wage yet another war that would include the US and all other western allies against them. It just doesn't seem very plausible in our present time and situation.

sean, I know it's bros before you knows, but it's almost like you haven't read what I've said. Gog is a title. Titles can be borne by several different individuals. Gog is a title for the ruler of chaos/the rebel forces against God and His people. Chaos is symbolized in the Bible by "the sea." For example:

Scripture Verse: Isaiah 8

⁵ The Lord spoke to me again:

⁶ “Because this people has rejected
the gently flowing waters of Shiloah
and rejoices over Rezin
and the son of Remaliah,
⁷ therefore the Lord is about to bring against them
the mighty floodwaters of the Euphrates—
the king of Assyria with all his pomp.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: Nahum 1

He rebukes the sea and dries it up;
he makes all the rivers run dry.
Bashan and Carmel wither
and the blossoms of Lebanon fade.

© Copyright Original Source

A big clue that Rev 20 is different from other Gog iterations is that this defeat of Gog results in "no more sea" (that is, no more rebellion against God) as can be seen in the very first verse of the next chapter:

Scripture Verse: Revelation 21

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

© Copyright Original Source

Which is one of many reasons 3 Resurrections' interpretation is cuckcoo for cocoa puffs. There is still plenty of rebellion after her version of "Gog and Magog". Also, her objection that the Gog war requires battle with literal swords instead of it meaning the well known motif of "fighting and dying by the sword" (violence in general) and/or "taking up arms" (not literal arms) is summarily dismissed, especially when she doesn't require literal fulfillment of angelic deliverers of judgment or literal fire from the mouth of the two witnesses. Get that inconsistent nonsense out of here.

I don't have space to detail the entire "chaoskampf" motif (I've explained much of it in other posts), but it can be seen in the very first chapter of Genesis:

Scripture Verse: Genesis 1

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ² Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

© Copyright Original Source

Both "formless" and "deep" share the root "tohu" in Hebrew, which formed the basis of "the abyss" in Hebrew and other cultures, but also had the connotation of "chaotic" (formless). It was also portrayed as "water", which is why God "hovers" over it pre-creation.

Scripture Verse: Genesis 1

⁶ And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” ⁷ So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. ⁸ God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

⁹ And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. ¹⁰ God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

© Copyright Original Source

This represents God "bringing order from chaos" which was poetically stated as "vanquishing the sea monster" (Leviathan/Rahab/Tiamat). So again, "the sea" represents chaotic forces of rebellion to God's order in the Bible, which is why the beast comes out of "the sea":

Scripture Verse: Revelation 13

13 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

© Copyright Original Source

So Gog as Okeanos/Ogyges/Og represents the personified sea and/or the ruler of the sea/forces of chaotic rebellion. Necessarily more than one individual, as God and His people have had many enemies throughout history.

I also wanted to give more evidence that America is Israel (Ephraim) in one guise in Scripture and Babylon in another. Names in general were really more like titles to the ancients than labels meant to define one's "essence", since the ancients rightly believed one could change and no longer reflect a given title or require a new one (which is why Pharaoh gave Joseph a new name and Nebuchadnezzar gave Daniel a new one). It's also why we receive a white stone with our real name when we overcome. So it shouldn't be difficult to believe when I say that America is given multiple names/titles in Scripture. The common thread are the events depicted as coming upon this end days nation, including invasion by a coalition of nations "from the far north":

Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 50

This is the word the Lord spoke through Jeremiah the prophet concerning Babylon and the land of the Babylonians:

² “Announce and proclaim among the nations,
lift up a banner and proclaim it;
keep nothing back, but say,
‘Babylon will be captured;
Bel will be put to shame,
Marduk filled with terror.
Her images will be put to shame
and her idols filled with terror.’
³ A nation from the north will attack her
and lay waste her land.
No one will live in it;
both people and animals will flee away.


⁴ “In those days, at that time,”
declares the Lord,
“the people of Israel [Ephraim/Christians] and the people of Judah [Jews] together
will go in tears to seek the Lord their God.
⁵ They will ask the way to Zion
and turn their faces toward it.
They will come and bind themselves to the Lord
in an everlasting covenant
that will not be forgotten.

© Copyright Original Source

Why would Jews living in Jerusalem need to "ask the way to Zion" or "turn their faces" to travel there? They wouldn't.

Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 50

“My people have been lost sheep;
their shepherds have led them astray
and caused them to roam on the mountains.
They wandered over mountain and hill
and forgot their own resting place.

© Copyright Original Source

Mountains are symbolic of kingdoms/nations in Scripture. His people have been "lost sheep" (lost tribes of Israel) who have "wandered" through various nations and forgot their "resting place" (Zion).

Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 50

⁸ “Flee out of Babylon;
leave the land of the Babylonians,
and be like the goats that lead the flock.
⁹ For I will stir up and bring against Babylon
an alliance of great nations from the land of the north.
They will take up their positions against her,
and from the north she will be captured.
Their arrows will be like skilled warriors
who do not return empty-handed.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 51

⁴ They will fall down slain in Babylon,
fatally wounded in her streets.
⁵ For Israel and Judah have not been forsaken
by their God, the Lord Almighty,
though their land is full of guilt
before the Holy One of Israel.


⁶ “Flee from Babylon!
Run for your lives!
Do not be destroyed because of her sins.
It is time for the Lord’s vengeance;
he will repay her what she deserves.

© Copyright Original Source

"Their land" is Babylon. That is, Israelites and Jews (America has the second largest number of Jews after Israel) are living in Babylon when it is judged and they are told to "flee" to Zion.

Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 51

²⁷ “Lift up a banner in the land!
Blow the trumpet among the nations!
Prepare the nations for battle against her;
summon against her these kingdoms:
Ararat, Minni and Ashkenaz.
Appoint a commander against her;
send up horses like a swarm of locusts.
²⁸ Prepare the nations for battle against her—
the kings of the Medes,
their governors and all their officials,
and all the countries they rule.
²⁹ The land trembles and writhes,
for the Lord’s purposes against Babylon stand—
to lay waste the land of Babylon
so that no one will live there.

© Copyright Original Source

Ararat, Minni, Ashkenaz = Russia and/or former Soviet bloc nations and Medes = Persia/Iran, the exact coalition detailed in Ezekiel. And the "flee from her, my people!" motif is repeated in Revelation to show it is an endtime event:

Scripture Verse: Revelation 18

⁴ Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“‘Come out of her, my people,’
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
⁵ for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.

© Copyright Original Source

I didn't cite the entire chapters of Jeremiah 50 and 51 to save space, but they are well worth reading for the context.

[seanD]

sean, I know it's bros before you knows, but it's almost like you haven't read what I've said. Gog is a title. Titles can be borne by several different individuals. Gog is a title for the ruler of chaos/the rebel forces against God and His people. Chaos is symbolized in the Bible by "the sea." For example:

Scripture Verse: Isaiah 8

⁵ The Lord spoke to me again:

⁶ “Because this people has rejected
the gently flowing waters of Shiloah
and rejoices over Rezin
and the son of Remaliah,
⁷ therefore the Lord is about to bring against them
the mighty floodwaters of the Euphrates—
the king of Assyria with all his pomp.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: Nahum 1

He rebukes the sea and dries it up;
he makes all the rivers run dry.
Bashan and Carmel wither
and the blossoms of Lebanon fade.

© Copyright Original Source

A big clue that Rev 20 is different from other Gog iterations is that this defeat of Gog results in "no more sea" (that is, no more rebellion against God) as can be seen in the very first verse of the next chapter:

Scripture Verse: Revelation 21

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

© Copyright Original Source

Which is one of many reasons 3 Resurrections' interpretation is cuckcoo for cocoa puffs. There is still plenty of rebellion after her version of "Gog and Magog". Also, her objection that the Gog war requires battle with literal swords instead of it meaning the well known motif of "fighting and dying by the sword" (violence in general) and/or "taking up arms" (not literal arms) is summarily dismissed, especially when she doesn't require literal fulfillment of angelic deliverers of judgment or literal fire from the mouth of the two witnesses. Get that inconsistent nonsense out of here.

I don't have space to detail the entire "chaoskampf" motif (I've explained much of it in other posts), but it can be seen in the very first chapter of Genesis:

Scripture Verse: Genesis 1

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ² Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

© Copyright Original Source

Both "formless" and "deep" share the root "tohu" in Hebrew, which formed the basis of "the abyss" in Hebrew and other cultures, but also had the connotation of "chaotic" (formless). It was also portrayed as "water", which is why God "hovers" over it pre-creation.

Scripture Verse: Genesis 1

⁶ And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” ⁷ So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. ⁸ God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

⁹ And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. ¹⁰ God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

© Copyright Original Source

This represents God "bringing order from chaos" which was poetically stated as "vanquishing the sea monster" (Leviathan/Rahab/Tiamat). So again, "the sea" represents chaotic forces of rebellion to God's order in the Bible, which is why the beast comes out of "the sea":

Scripture Verse: Revelation 13

13 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

© Copyright Original Source

So Gog as Okeanos/Ogyges/Og represents the personified sea and/or the ruler of the sea/forces of chaotic rebellion. Necessarily more than one individual, as God and His people have had many enemies throughout history.

I also wanted to give more evidence that America is Israel (Ephraim) in one guise in Scripture and Babylon in another. Names in general were really more like titles to the ancients than labels meant to define one's "essence", since the ancients rightly believed one could change and no longer reflect a given title or require a new one (which is why Pharaoh gave Joseph a new name and Nebuchadnezzar gave Daniel a new one). It's also why we receive a white stone with our real name when we overcome. So it shouldn't be difficult to believe when I say that America is given multiple names/titles in Scripture. The common thread are the events depicted as coming upon this end days nation, including invasion by a coalition of nations "from the far north":

Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 50

This is the word the Lord spoke through Jeremiah the prophet concerning Babylon and the land of the Babylonians:

² “Announce and proclaim among the nations,
lift up a banner and proclaim it;
keep nothing back, but say,
‘Babylon will be captured;
Bel will be put to shame,
Marduk filled with terror.
Her images will be put to shame
and her idols filled with terror.’
³ A nation from the north will attack her
and lay waste her land.
No one will live in it;
both people and animals will flee away.


⁴ “In those days, at that time,”
declares the Lord,
“the people of Israel [Ephraim/Christians] and the people of Judah [Jews] together
will go in tears to seek the Lord their God.
⁵ They will ask the way to Zion
and turn their faces toward it.
They will come and bind themselves to the Lord
in an everlasting covenant
that will not be forgotten.

© Copyright Original Source

Why would Jews living in Jerusalem need to "ask the way to Zion" or "turn their faces" to travel there? They wouldn't.

Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 50

“My people have been lost sheep;
their shepherds have led them astray
and caused them to roam on the mountains.
They wandered over mountain and hill
and forgot their own resting place.

© Copyright Original Source

Mountains are symbolic of kingdoms/nations in Scripture. His people have been "lost sheep" (lost tribes of Israel) who have "wandered" through various nations and forgot their "resting place" (Zion).

Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 50

⁸ “Flee out of Babylon;
leave the land of the Babylonians,
and be like the goats that lead the flock.
⁹ For I will stir up and bring against Babylon
an alliance of great nations from the land of the north.
They will take up their positions against her,
and from the north she will be captured.
Their arrows will be like skilled warriors
who do not return empty-handed.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 51

⁴ They will fall down slain in Babylon,
fatally wounded in her streets.
⁵ For Israel and Judah have not been forsaken
by their God, the Lord Almighty,
though their land is full of guilt
before the Holy One of Israel.


⁶ “Flee from Babylon!
Run for your lives!
Do not be destroyed because of her sins.
It is time for the Lord’s vengeance;
he will repay her what she deserves.

© Copyright Original Source

"Their land" is Babylon. That is, Israelites and Jews (America has the second largest number of Jews after Israel) are living in Babylon when it is judged and they are told to "flee" to Zion.

Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 51

²⁷ “Lift up a banner in the land!
Blow the trumpet among the nations!
Prepare the nations for battle against her;
summon against her these kingdoms:
Ararat, Minni and Ashkenaz.
Appoint a commander against her;
send up horses like a swarm of locusts.
²⁸ Prepare the nations for battle against her—
the kings of the Medes,
their governors and all their officials,
and all the countries they rule.
²⁹ The land trembles and writhes,
for the Lord’s purposes against Babylon stand—
to lay waste the land of Babylon
so that no one will live there.

© Copyright Original Source

Ararat, Minni, Ashkenaz = Russia and/or former Soviet bloc nations and Medes = Persia/Iran, the exact coalition detailed in Ezekiel. And the "flee from her, my people!" motif is repeated in Revelation to show it is an endtime event:

Scripture Verse: Revelation 18

⁴ Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“‘Come out of her, my people,’
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
⁵ for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.

© Copyright Original Source

I didn't cite the entire chapters of Jeremiah 50 and 51 to save space, but they are well worth reading for the context.

No offense Darfius, but that's way too much symbolism there for my taste. As a futurist I try and avoid as much symbolism as possible, though I don't deny there is some. But that's my biggest criticism of preterism. They have a habit of turning everything into vague symbolism, even instances that don't really require it. To me, I interpret Rev 21 in a pretty literal sense -- actual God actions that result in an actual physical reality existence.

[Darfius]

No offense Darfius, but that's way too much symbolism there for my taste. As a futurist I try and avoid as much symbolism as possible, though I don't deny there is some. But that's my biggest criticism of preterism. They have a habit of turning everything into vague symbolism, even instances that don't really require it. To me, I interpret Rev 21 in a pretty literal sense -- actual God actions that result in an actual physical reality existence.

I am saying the final iteration of Gog will be after the Millenium when Satan (he will be Gog then) will gather all rebels against God for a final battle after 1,000 years of peace. It will be a physical battle. I am also saying there will be other physical battles before then beginning with the invasion of America. Not sure what you mean by too much symbolism. Do you agree that the Antichrist is called a "little horn"? Is he literally a horn on some creature's head? Or is it a title? So it is with Gog.

[seanD]

I am saying the final iteration of Gog will be after the Millenium when Satan (he will be Gog then) will gather all rebels against God for a final battle after 1,000 years of peace. It will be a physical battle. I am also saying there will be other physical battles before then beginning with the invasion of America. Not sure what you mean by too much symbolism. Do you agree that the Antichrist is called a "little horn"? Is he literally a horn on some creature's head? Or is it a title? So it is with Gog.

I imagine you and I will disagree about quite a few things because there are things claimed by futurists I'm still unsure of, not that dogmatic about, or disagree entirely.

[Darfius]

I imagine you and I will disagree about quite a few things because there are things claimed by futurists I'm still unsure of, not that dogmatic about, or disagree entirely.

I wish I could say "let's agree to disagree", but it's too late in the game to treat apathy like tolerance. I made concrete, either/or statements which must either be shown to be false or accepted. Og is a giant in Scripture based at the primordial waters at Hermon because he claimed to be the Gog of his time. Among other concrete statements I made. I despise 3 Resurrections because she ignores things that prove her nonsense false so she doesn't look like a huge idiot with her name "3 Resurrections". In other words, her entire self-identity and ego is at stake and truth takes a backseat to her if it matters at all at this point.

I appreciate the times we've allied against the preterists, sean, but I can't get on board "agree to disagree". I'm either correct or not and must be shown to be incorrect with evidence, not lazy handwaving or vague "coexist" statements. People's lives and souls are at stake.

[seanD]

I wish I could say "let's agree to disagree", but it's too late in the game to treat apathy like tolerance. I made concrete, either/or statements which must either be shown to be false or accepted. Og is a giant in Scripture based at the primordial waters at Hermon because he claimed to be the Gog of his time. Among other concrete statements I made. I despise 3 Resurrections because she ignores things that prove her nonsense false so she doesn't look like a huge idiot with her name "3 Resurrections". In other words, her entire self-identity and ego is at stake and truth takes a backseat to her if it matters at all at this point.

I appreciate the times we've allied against the preterists, sean, but I can't get on board "agree to disagree". I'm either correct or not and must be shown to be incorrect with evidence, not lazy handwaving or vague "coexist" statements. People's lives and souls are at stake.

I don't think disagreements on the interpretations of Ezekiel is that consequential. We agree things are going to get really bad, horrible, and we might even have to endure a post-apocalyptic existence for some time. Disagreements on how things will exactly play out will have little affect on that realization.

[Darfius]

I don't think disagreements on the interpretations of Ezekiel is that consequential. We agree things are going to get really bad, horrible, and we might even have to endure a post-apocalyptic existence for some time. Disagreements on how things will exactly play out will have little affect on that realization.

Fair point.

I do think it's important that God's people understand what we will be facing very soon and have no illusions about "things going on as they have since the beginning". But you're right, at least you're not telling people not to worry cause "all the bad stuff happened in the past to those Jews".

[Esther]

Thank you for your input Darfius and Sean. Also 3 Resurrections. She writes beautifully and she is well able to support the preterist view.

I am also not dogmatic but like to read the Bible literally as much as possible.

I am not sure about the Ezekiel 38 war at all.

I like1 Thessalonians 5:1-12 which is such a good example of a very clear quite detailed description of what the Day of the Lord is going to look like. There is so much that is clear and easy to understand that I largely steer clear of figurative interpretation.

3 Resurrections do you view the following scripture as already fulfilled? (Asking sincerely, not in order to mock your view).

The Day of the Lord


5 Now as to the ^[a]times and dates, ^[b]brothers and sisters, you have no need for anything to be written to you. ² For you yourselves know perfectly well that the day of the [return of the] Lord is coming just as a thief [comes unexpectedly and suddenly] in the night. ³ While they are saying, “Peace and safety [all is well and secure!]” then [in a moment unforeseen] destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains on a woman with child, and they will absolutely not escape [for there will be no way to escape the judgment of the Lord]. ⁴ But you, ^[c]believers, [all you who believe in Christ as Savior and acknowledge Him as God’s Son] are not in spiritual darkness [nor held by its power], that the day [of judgment] would overtake you [by surprise] like a thief; ⁵ for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We do not belong to the night nor to darkness. ⁶ So then let us not sleep [in spiritual indifference] as the rest [of the world does], but let us keep wide awake [alert and cautious] and let us be sober [self-controlled, calm, and wise]. ⁷ For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who are drunk get drunk at night. ⁸ But since we [believers] belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope and confident assurance of salvation. ⁹ For God has not destined us to [incur His] wrath [that is, He did not select us to condemn us], but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, ¹⁰ who died [willingly] for us, so that whether we are awake (alive) or asleep (dead) [at Christ’s appearing], we will live together with Him [sharing eternal life]. ¹¹ Therefore encourage and comfort one another and build up one another, just as you are doing.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi Esther,

Apologies for not responding to your comment yesterday...I'm in the middle of drapery construction deadlines and got delayed. No mockery at all sensed in your question, and I appreciate the courtesy, even though we are coming from different perspectives on this.

As to the 1 Thessalonians 5:1-12 passage with its detailed description of the coming Day of the Lord, I most definitely believe this was fulfilled to the Thessalonian audience in their days. The Thessalonian believers personally were promised a deliverance from "the coming wrath" which Paul mentioned back in 1 Thessalonians 1:10. This particular "wrath" was going to come upon those Jewish countrymen who had killed Christ and their own prophets, and who were then forbidding Paul to speak the gospel to the Gentiles. This list of offenses had by then completely filled up the measure of their sin, which had made God's wrath to have "come upon them to the uttermost" in those days (1 Thessalonians 2:16). God's "days of vengeance" fell upon that particular generation of Jews which had been responsible for crucifying Christ, killing the prophets, and persecuting the saints. God's vengeance for that ultimate offense of betraying and murdering His Son earned the ultimate "great tribulation", which particular kind of tribulation would never again be repeated in history following that time (Matthew 24:21).

The ethnic Jews of that day were totally confident in their national identity as opposed to the "sinners of the Gentiles" that they regarded with disdain. And they were totally certain that God would never allow Jerusalem and its temple to be taken down. God allowed them to believe this "strong delusion". Once the Roman armies under Cestius Gallus came against Jerusalem at the beginning of the war in AD 66 and were dealt a humiliating defeat by the Zealots' armies, this made the Jews more confident than ever that their rebellion against Rome had God's favor and support. The Zealot armies confiscated all of the abandoned Roman weapons of war and brought them back to Jerusalem with singing and great rejoicing. Those Jewish Zealot factions thought they had "peace and safety", but God was only allowing them a temporary delay from the disasters that came upon them almost immediately afterward. And most of those disasters originated from their own countrymen doing battle with each other to gain the Messiah role over their own nation.

God knew when this civil warfare would emerge with Israelite against Israelite (when "every man's sword shall be against his brother" - Ezekiel 38:21). Christ had forewarned His own generation that "from henceforth" this division in Israel would only continue to grow more intense, even among family members (Luke 12:51-53). That is why Paul encouraged the Thessalonian believers to be patient while enduring tribulation by their own countrymen, just like the Jewish believers were enduring tribulation by their own countrymen (1 Thessalonians 2:14). God would soon come to dispense tribulation "in flaming fire taking vengeance" upon those who were persecuting the believers (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9). When Christ returned, the persecuted Thessalonians would be vindicated, and those who had oppressed them would be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord at His return.

This promised blessing of vindication and vengeance on behalf of the believers was not delayed for 2,000 years and counting. What kind of comfort would that have afforded to those saints experiencing tribulations from those that were so hostile to Christ in those first century days? Paul assured them that whether those believers lived of died under martyrdom as a result of that persecution, they would still be living together with Christ, whether in heaven as a bodily-resurrected saint at Christ's (AD 70) return, or on earth with Christ's Holy Spirit dwelling within them.

This promised vengeance that God accomplished against that generation of Jews that rejected and crucified Christ should give us encouragement that God will also care for us in any periods of persecution for the faith that will crop up against us in our future. His promises fulfilled back then are a surety that His care for us will never fail either.

[Esther]

Hi Esther,

Apologies for not responding to your comment yesterday...I'm in the middle of drapery construction deadlines and got delayed. No mockery at all sensed in your question, and I appreciate the courtesy, even though we are coming from different perspectives on this.

Hi and thanks for this reply. If you have time it would be interesting to know what drapery construction consists of and your role in it!

As to the 1 Thessalonians 5:1-12 passage with its detailed description of the coming Day of the Lord, I most definitely believe this was fulfilled to the Thessalonian audience in their days. The Thessalonian believers personally were promised a deliverance from "the coming wrath" which Paul mentioned back in 1 Thessalonians 1:10. This particular "wrath" was going to come upon those Jewish countrymen who had killed Christ and their own prophets, and who were then forbidding Paul to speak the gospel to the Gentiles. This list of offenses had by then completely filled up the measure of their sin, which had made God's wrath to have "come upon them to the uttermost" in those days (1 Thessalonians 2:16). God's "days of vengeance" fell upon that particular generation of Jews which had been responsible for crucifying Christ, killing the prophets, and persecuting the saints. God's vengeance for that ultimate offense of betraying and murdering His Son earned the ultimate "great tribulation", which particular kind of tribulation would never again be repeated in history following that time (Matthew 24:21).

The ethnic Jews of that day were totally confident in their national identity as opposed to the "sinners of the Gentiles" that they regarded with disdain. And they were totally certain that God would never allow Jerusalem and its temple to be taken down. God allowed them to believe this "strong delusion". Once the Roman armies under Cestius Gallus came against Jerusalem at the beginning of the war in AD 66 and were dealt a humiliating defeat by the Zealots' armies, this made the Jews more confident than ever that their rebellion against Rome had God's favor and support. The Zealot armies confiscated all of the abandoned Roman weapons of war and brought them back to Jerusalem with singing and great rejoicing. Those Jewish Zealot factions thought they had "peace and safety", but God was only allowing them a temporary delay from the disasters that came upon them almost immediately afterward. And most of those disasters originated from their own countrymen doing battle with each other to gain the Messiah role over their own nation.

God knew when this civil warfare would emerge with Israelite against Israelite (when "every man's sword shall be against his brother" - Ezekiel 38:21). Christ had forewarned His own generation that "from henceforth" this division in Israel would only continue to grow more intense, even among family members (Luke 12:51-53). That is why Paul encouraged the Thessalonian believers to be patient while enduring tribulation by their own countrymen, just like the Jewish believers were enduring tribulation by their own countrymen (1 Thessalonians 2:14). God would soon come to dispense tribulation "in flaming fire taking vengeance" upon those who were persecuting the believers (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9). When Christ returned, the persecuted Thessalonians would be vindicated, and those who had oppressed them would be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord at His return.

This promised blessing of vindication and vengeance on behalf of the believers was not delayed for 2,000 years and counting. What kind of comfort would that have afforded to those saints experiencing tribulations from those that were so hostile to Christ in those first century days? Paul assured them that whether those believers lived of died under martyrdom as a result of that persecution, they would still be living together with Christ, whether in heaven as a bodily-resurrected saint at Christ's (AD 70) return, or on earth with Christ's Holy Spirit dwelling within them.

This promised vengeance that God accomplished against that generation of Jews that rejected and crucified Christ should give us encouragement that God will also care for us in any periods of persecution for the faith that will crop up against us in our future. His promises fulfilled back then are a surety that His care for us will never fail either.

It is only recently that I became aware that there was such a thing as a preterist view of eschatology. My take on it was that there is a section of Christianity who believes we are living in the millennial reign of Christ. This has been weird for me especially since when my husband and I got born again (about 2004) we learned about the pre-tribulation rapture. It was all very scary and exiting, and we said the sinner's prayer at every opportunity, hundreds of times even, because we did not want to go to hell or be left behind.

As we continued in our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, it just started making less sense that there would be a time when all the Christians would be taken out of the earth and that not only would there be flimsy reasons (according to pre-trib doctrine) given for their disappearance, but also that there would be new converts left who would have to endure huge persecution and tribulation and have heads cut off by the anti-Christ etc.

Chatting to this one lady in church who had similar questions, we agreed that as Christians we would have to endure the Great Tribulation to the point of the last trumpet. The wonderful solid simplicity of waiting for the last trumpet, whenever that will occur has not caused any further questionings re pre, mid or post tribulation for me.

On a funny last note, I was raised SDA, and I have only gratitude for the seeds they sowed and also for the lovely dear people in this denomination, but they add yet another thing to the mix, in that they believe that the millennium takes place in heaven!

One elderly JW man I bump into in town told me that Jesus came back in 1914!

I wonder how many preterists/"pre-tribulationists" there would be should there be no teachings about it, only plain Bible reading. Were you taught the preterist doctrine?

[Catholicity]

Hi and thanks for this reply. If you have time it would be interesting to know what drapery construction consists of and your role in it!




It is only recently that I became aware that there was such a thing as a preterist view of eschatology. My take on it was that there is a section of Christianity who believes we are living in the millennial reign of Christ. This has been weird for me especially since when my husband and I got born again (about 2004) we learned about the pre-tribulation rapture. It was all very scary and exiting, and we said the sinner's prayer at every opportunity, hundreds of times even, because we did not want to go to hell or be left behind.

As we continued in our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, it just started making less sense that there would be a time when all the Christians would be taken out of the earth and that not only would there be flimsy reasons (according to pre-trib doctrine) given for their disappearance, but also that there would be new converts left who would have to endure huge persecution and tribulation and have heads cut off by the anti-Christ etc.

Chatting to this one lady in church who had similar questions, we agreed that as Christians we would have to endure the Great Tribulation to the point of the last trumpet. The wonderful solid simplicity of waiting for the last trumpet, whenever that will occur has not caused any further questionings re pre, mid or post tribulation for me.

On a funny last note, I was raised SDA, and I have only gratitude for the seeds they sowed and also for the lovely dear people in this denomination, but they add yet another thing to the mix, in that they believe that the millennium takes place in heaven!

One elderly JW man I bump into in town told me that Jesus came back in 1914!

I wonder how many preterists/"pre-tribulationists" there would be should there be no teachings about it, only plain Bible reading. Were you taught the preterist doctrine?

The idea of the rapture, pre tribulation, etc, all arose from the Plymouth Brethren in the 1840's with John Nelson Darby. It makes sense that he came up with the idea due to the politics of the day. When i was in my mid 20's the more I studied the origins of premillenialism and the teachings of the Church as a whole, the less sense it made. At no time in history has it been taught up until the last 180 years. Darby needed a way to discredit the Catholic Church and the Anglican Church as the Brethren were often shunned. There is a good book on this subject called "The Rapture Plot." In light of the 2000 years the Church has been around and their teaching of the end times, I am more inclined to believe the author of the book, in that the new doctrine was politically motivated.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi and thanks for this reply. If you have time it would be interesting to know what drapery construction consists of and your role in it!




It is only recently that I became aware that there was such a thing as a preterist view of eschatology. My take on it was that there is a section of Christianity who believes we are living in the millennial reign of Christ. This has been weird for me especially since when my husband and I got born again (about 2004) we learned about the pre-tribulation rapture. It was all very scary and exiting, and we said the sinner's prayer at every opportunity, hundreds of times even, because we did not want to go to hell or be left behind.

As we continued in our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, it just started making less sense that there would be a time when all the Christians would be taken out of the earth and that not only would there be flimsy reasons (according to pre-trib doctrine) given for their disappearance, but also that there would be new converts left who would have to endure huge persecution and tribulation and have heads cut off by the anti-Christ etc.

Chatting to this one lady in church who had similar questions, we agreed that as Christians we would have to endure the Great Tribulation to the point of the last trumpet. The wonderful solid simplicity of waiting for the last trumpet, whenever that will occur has not caused any further questionings re pre, mid or post tribulation for me.

On a funny last note, I was raised SDA, and I have only gratitude for the seeds they sowed and also for the lovely dear people in this denomination, but they add yet another thing to the mix, in that they believe that the millennium takes place in heaven!

One elderly JW man I bump into in town told me that Jesus came back in 1914!

I wonder how many preterists/"pre-tribulationists" there would be should there be no teachings about it, only plain Bible reading. Were you taught the preterist doctrine?

Hi again Esther,

As for the drapery construction, I have my own in-house sewing workroom with equipment to make every kind of custom window treatment, bedding, pillows, cushions, cornices, and some upholstery, etc.. If it's something made out of fabric, I have probably made one like it in the 32 years I have been doing this. If necessary, I could replicate the Oval Office treatments for a client , since I make all my own patterns, with sketches of designs drawn to scale for the designers to show their clients. I'm finally getting around to expanding my own workroom space after all these years, and have personally done all the teardown, excavating, foundation prep, and floor joist construction so that the carpenters could get things in the dry. Building the back yard deck myself and landscaping the yard is my summer's project, while I wait for an available stonemason to get the new workroom entrance done. I can lay out all the flagstone walkways surrounding the house, but the steps to the porch need a professional stonemason - and they are ALL super busy .

I've been sewing ever since I was a little kid some 50 years ago. But my interest in sewing has paled in comparison to my interest in Bible studies and conversations about it with others, regardless of what denomination they come from. You struck a chord of memory when you mentioned you and your husband saying the sinner's prayer multiple times just to make sure that you avoided hell or the misfortune of being left behind. This also used to be my same panicked response to the premil-disp. training I grew up with as a child. As a very young Christian, there was a lot of fear and plenty of doubt as to whether I had said the right words or was sincere enough in my repentance to avoid hell or being "left behind". This past fear of what I once thought were apocalyptic disasters coming in my future is something that I have been so thankful to have laid aside after studying eschatology and discovering the preterist perspective in scripture. There's so much more peace and confidence now in God's ultimate plans for His kingdom in this world that I wouldn't trade for anything. And like you, I have nothing but gratitude for the scripture my parents saturated us with from the time we were able to read, and the pastors I have listened to, even though I have used that very same familiarity with the scripture to come to some opposite conclusions by now.

The Southern Baptist church I was attending with my husband for 16 years had never seriously addressed the eschatology issue. So, twelve years ago, I began the most intensive Bible study on my own that I had ever done in my life, which has continued to this day. I begged God to show me the answers to my questions that no preacher had ever been able to convincingly deliver a message on. My husband loaned me his Interlinear version and his Septuagint (which I never gave back to him!). Just looking at word studies in the original languages opened up the scriptures to me as I had never seen them before in all my years of Christian schooling and listening to sermons from my childhood. God's promise is very real that you will find Him if you seek for Him with all your heart.

The first Preterist I ever encountered twelve years ago was Dr. Kenneth Gentry's doctoral dissertation "Before Jerusalem Fell", which jogged my thinking in that direction. But there are a few mistakes in the positions he takes that I have recognized since reading that book for the first time. His dating for Revelation is a few years too late (which is really no later than early AD 60), and he misses who the restrainer of the Antichrist is (the high priest Ananias ben Nebedeus), as well as the identity of the Antichrist (the Zealot Menahem), and the two witnesses (the former high priests Joshua ben Gamaliel and Ananus ben Annas), and he misses the past millennium dates (from 968/967 BC - AD 33) and the fact that there are not just two Beasts in Revelation, but THREE of them, as well as THREE bodily resurrection events (AD 33, AD 70, AD 3033). Fortunately, Dr. Gentry does recognize that the "kings of the earth" in Revelation's prophecies are the high priests of the land of Israel; a fact which dates the fulfillment of those prophecies to a time when the Israelite high priesthood still existed (before the end of AD 70).

The current result of twelve years of study on eschatology for me is a sort of patchwork quilt based on bits of truth gleaned from all the various eschatology camps. As you can imagine, insults and scorn consequently tend to come from all directions, since they all find something to criticize. I'm used to it by now, even from my husband who regards me as a traitorous heretic with perverse doctrines. Paul probably said it best when he wrote to the Roman believers, "Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own Master he stands or falls", and "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind". That is all any one of us can do, really.

[Thoughtful Monk]

The idea of the rapture, pre tribulation, etc, all arose from the Plymouth Brethren in the 1840's with John Nelson Darby. It makes sense that he came up with the idea due to the politics of the day. When i was in my mid 20's the more I studied the origins of premillenialism and the teachings of the Church as a whole, the less sense it made. At no time in history has it been taught up until the last 180 years. Darby needed a way to discredit the Catholic Church and the Anglican Church as the Brethren were often shunned. There is a good book on this subject called "The Rapture Plot." In light of the 2000 years the Church has been around and their teaching of the end times, I am more inclined to believe the author of the book, in that the new doctrine was politically motivated.

I've never done a thorough study of Eschatology. I do know that over the years of reading the Bible, pre-tribulation rapture has become a less convincing position for me to take.

I've decided to focus my more likely meeting with Jesus - after my death.