Russia, the king of the North, the Bear

[Esther]

Russia, Turkey and Iran.

Have been looking at these countries for a few years now because they were highlighted in some of the prophecy teachings I have read/listened to over the course of about 20 years. About 2 years ago I saw for myself how these 3 countries were behind the same podium somewhere, with their country's respective flags depicted on Aljazeera news. Putin, Erdogan and Rouhani all shaking hands together at one time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu5k...VoiceofAmerica

I believe these countries are the end times players to watch out for.

[Ted Noel]

In the Bible, Russia is the king of the North (North of Israel) also understood to represent the Bear. I heard such an interesting observation on one of the Christian channels, that an injured bear is far more dangerous than one that is not. Putin is injured I think. The Ezekiel 38 war could well be on its way.

The OP begins with a curious emphatic declaration: "In the Bible, Russia is the king of the North." I rise to ask the OP to present evidence for this assertion. In particular, I note that this Ezekiel 38 "Rosh" = "Russia" argument is ubiquitous in the community that is not well versed in languages and the ancient near east, as well as the history of "Russia."

In Ezekiel 38, the names come from Genesis 10, the table of nations. At Babel (Gen 11), YHWH split the peoples up into smaller groups with individual languages and they were dispersed. The names in Ezekiel 38 are all dispersed into Anatolia, which is basically modern Turkey and some of northern Syria. A bit of Greece is included for good measure. It should be noted that the Black Sea is north of Turkey, and the Bible text is completely unaware of the land mass north of it (Russia).

Next, we must note a fundamental hermeneutical fact. ALL of scripture was inherently understandable to its original audience. That does not mean that it was interpreted identically by everyone. A quick read of Mishna and Talmud will show that the rabbis would argue at length over the meaning of a passage. At the same time, they all understood all of the words. The place and person names were familiar. Continuing on, we must note that the name "Russia" derives from the name "Rus' " that was brought into the northern part of modern Russian by the Vikings (farther north!) between 800 and 1200 AD. Thus, when Ezekiel wrote in the 6th century BC, not only did Russia not exist, the name did not exist. This means that Rosh=Russia is at least 1,500 years in the future as Ezekiel wrote. And that means that it is virtually impossible to have a biblical equation between the two terms. Both Herodotus (7.78) and Josephus (Ant 1.124) place Meshech (Moschoi) in E Asia Minor.

BTW, identifying "rosh" as a person is problematic. The Hebrew of Ezek 38:2 is probably best translated as "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal..." (CJB, ESV, KJV, NET, NIV, NLT) Only the NAS (in my brief survey) renders it as "Magog the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal." The Hebrew word order makes the "chief prince" rendering much better. I would refer you to a much more complete discussion of this at https://nakedbiblepodcast.com/podcas...-38-39-part-1/ . Download the transcript and search for "Russia."

As a final step, I spent some time searching the Jewish sages for "Russia." I came up empty. This leaves us with a simple challenge. If Ezekiel intended "Rosh"="Russia," bring your evidence. Until then, any interpretation that depends on Russia must be considered unbiblical.

[rogue06]

The OP begins with a curious emphatic declaration: "In the Bible, Russia is the king of the North." I rise to ask the OP to present evidence for this assertion. In particular, I note that this Ezekiel 38 "Rosh" = "Russia" argument is ubiquitous in the community that is not well versed in languages and the ancient near east, as well as the history of "Russia."

In Ezekiel 38, the names come from Genesis 10, the table of nations. At Babel (Gen 11), YHWH split the peoples up into smaller groups with individual languages and they were dispersed. The names in Ezekiel 38 are all dispersed into Anatolia, which is basically modern Turkey and some of northern Syria. A bit of Greece is included for good measure. It should be noted that the Black Sea is north of Turkey, and the Bible text is completely unaware of the land mass north of it (Russia).

Next, we must note a fundamental hermeneutical fact. ALL of scripture was inherently understandable to its original audience. That does not mean that it was interpreted identically by everyone. A quick read of Mishna and Talmud will show that the rabbis would argue at length over the meaning of a passage. At the same time, they all understood all of the words. The place and person names were familiar. Continuing on, we must note that the name "Russia" derives from the name "Rus' " that was brought into the northern part of modern Russian by the Vikings (farther north!) between 800 and 1200 AD. Thus, when Ezekiel wrote in the 6th century BC, not only did Russia not exist, the name did not exist. This means that Rosh=Russia is at least 1,500 years in the future as Ezekiel wrote. And that means that it is virtually impossible to have a biblical equation between the two terms. Both Herodotus (7.78) and Josephus (Ant 1.124) place Meshech (Moschoi) in E Asia Minor.

BTW, identifying "rosh" as a person is problematic. The Hebrew of Ezek 38:2 is probably best translated as "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal..." (CJB, ESV, KJV, NET, NIV, NLT) Only the NAS (in my brief survey) renders it as "Magog the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal." The Hebrew word order makes the "chief prince" rendering much better. I would refer you to a much more complete discussion of this at https://nakedbiblepodcast.com/podcas...-38-39-part-1/ . Download the transcript and search for "Russia."

As a final step, I spent some time searching the Jewish sages for "Russia." I came up empty. This leaves us with a simple challenge. If Ezekiel intended "Rosh"="Russia," bring your evidence. Until then, any interpretation that depends on Russia must be considered unbiblical.

Welcome to Tweb.

[rogue06]

Other countries did use the bear to depict Russia, yes.

Wiki actually has a pretty good write up concerning it

[Ted Noel]

Russia, Turkey and Iran.

Have been looking at these countries for a few years now because they were highlighted in some of the prophecy teachings I have read/listened to over the course of about 20 years. About 2 years ago I saw for myself how these 3 countries were behind the same podium somewhere, with their country's respective flags depicted on Aljazeera news. Putin, Erdogan and Rouhani all shaking hands together at one time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu5k...VoiceofAmerica

I believe these countries are the end times players to watch out for.

Once again, please provide biblical evidence that fits the understanding of the author and points to Russia. As noted before, and from Wikipedia, "Russia" came into the language about 1,500 years after Ezekiel.

[Ted Noel]

Russia, Turkey and Iran.

Have been looking at these countries for a few years now because they were highlighted in some of the prophecy teachings I have read/listened to over the course of about 20 years. About 2 years ago I saw for myself how these 3 countries were behind the same podium somewhere, with their country's respective flags depicted on Aljazeera news. Putin, Erdogan and Rouhani all shaking hands together at one time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu5k...VoiceofAmerica

I believe these countries are the end times players to watch out for.

We've all been taught things we had to unlearn. One item I forgot to list in my OP is that "rosh" does not exist in the Bible as a place name or people group. The Hebrew of Ezekiel 38:2 must be translated badly to get that result, and no other source uses it as a place name or people group.

[Faber]

It gets worse. I've heard some interpret Meshech and Tubal as Moscow and Tobolsk.

But the passage seems ambiguous. I've heard some commentaries suggest that it referred to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, or maybe to the emperor of Babylon.

Anyway, welcome to TWeb. But beware, there are a few detractors lurking on this site. You'll recognize them by their fruit. And watch out for those pirates.

[3 Resurrections]

We've all been taught things we had to unlearn. One item I forgot to list in my OP is that "rosh" does not exist in the Bible as a place name or people group. The Hebrew of Ezekiel 38:2 must be translated badly to get that result, and no other source uses it as a place name or people group.

How true that is about having to "unlearn" things from our past. And it is also true that "Rosh" does not exist in scripture as a proper noun title of a nation or a specific people group. "Ros" just means "chief" or "head" of something. It acts as a descriptive adjective in Ezekiel 38:2 - not a proper noun in that text.

The word "Ros" was used for the peak of the Mount of Olives which King David passed over as he fled Jerusalem from Absalom's approaching forces. This is found in the LXX for 2 Samuel 15:30,32 and 2 Samuel 16:1. "And David went up by the ascent of the mount of Olives, ascending and weeping...And David came as far as Ros, where he worshipped God... And David passed on a little way from Ros..."

In this text, "Ros" is simply descriptive of the highest point of the crest of the Mount of Olives - the chief part or the head of the mountain King David was ascending. (As a brief aside, this was the "head" part of the Mount of Olives where Christ was crucified - the "place of the skull". What is a "skull" but the head of a skeleton? Christ was crucified on the head of the Mount of Olives - the "ros" part of the mountain overlooking Jerusalem and the temple below.)

In Ezekiel 38:2, Gog is the nickname for the leading "chief (ros) prince of Meshech and Tubal", not the prince of Ros, Meshech, and Tubal. And none of this is at all related to our modern-day nation of Russia. Gog's battle is not a threat for our future. It is ancient history long past.