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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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  • #46
    Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post

    Hi again Esther,

    As for the drapery construction, I have my own in-house sewing workroom with equipment to make every kind of custom window treatment, bedding, pillows, cushions, cornices, and some upholstery, etc.. If it's something made out of fabric, I have probably made one like it in the 32 years I have been doing this. If necessary, I could replicate the Oval Office treatments for a client , since I make all my own patterns, with sketches of designs drawn to scale for the designers to show their clients. I'm finally getting around to expanding my own workroom space after all these years, and have personally done all the teardown, excavating, foundation prep, and floor joist construction so that the carpenters could get things in the dry. Building the back yard deck myself and landscaping the yard is my summer's project, while I wait for an available stonemason to get the new workroom entrance done. I can lay out all the flagstone walkways surrounding the house, but the steps to the porch need a professional stonemason - and they are ALL super busy .
    Thank you for this window into your life. Impressive beyond the telling of it. Seriously!

    I've been sewing ever since I was a little kid some 50 years ago. But my interest in sewing has paled in comparison to my interest in Bible studies and conversations about it with others, regardless of what denomination they come from. You struck a chord of memory when you mentioned you and your husband saying the sinner's prayer multiple times just to make sure that you avoided hell or the misfortune of being left behind. This also used to be my same panicked response to the premil-disp. training I grew up with as a child. As a very young Christian, there was a lot of fear and plenty of doubt as to whether I had said the right words or was sincere enough in my repentance to avoid hell or being "left behind". This past fear of what I once thought were apocalyptic disasters coming in my future is something that I have been so thankful to have laid aside after studying eschatology and discovering the preterist perspective in scripture. There's so much more peace and confidence now in God's ultimate plans for His kingdom in this world that I wouldn't trade for anything. And like you, I have nothing but gratitude for the scripture my parents saturated us with from the time we were able to read, and the pastors I have listened to, even though I have used that very same familiarity with the scripture to come to some opposite conclusions by now.

    The Southern Baptist church I was attending with my husband for 16 years had never seriously addressed the eschatology issue. So, twelve years ago, I began the most intensive Bible study on my own that I had ever done in my life, which has continued to this day. I begged God to show me the answers to my questions that no preacher had ever been able to convincingly deliver a message on. My husband loaned me his Interlinear version and his Septuagint (which I never gave back to him!). Just looking at word studies in the original languages opened up the scriptures to me as I had never seen them before in all my years of Christian schooling and listening to sermons from my childhood. God's promise is very real that you will find Him if you seek for Him with all your heart.

    The first Preterist I ever encountered twelve years ago was Dr. Kenneth Gentry's doctoral dissertation "Before Jerusalem Fell", which jogged my thinking in that direction. But there are a few mistakes in the positions he takes that I have recognized since reading that book for the first time. His dating for Revelation is a few years too late (which is really no later than early AD 60), and he misses who the restrainer of the Antichrist is (the high priest Ananias ben Nebedeus), as well as the identity of the Antichrist (the Zealot Menahem), and the two witnesses (the former high priests Joshua ben Gamaliel and Ananus ben Annas), and he misses the past millennium dates (from 968/967 BC - AD 33) and the fact that there are not just two Beasts in Revelation, but THREE of them, as well as THREE bodily resurrection events (AD 33, AD 70, AD 3033). Fortunately, Dr. Gentry does recognize that the "kings of the earth" in Revelation's prophecies are the high priests of the land of Israel; a fact which dates the fulfillment of those prophecies to a time when the Israelite high priesthood still existed (before the end of AD 70).

    The current result of twelve years of study on eschatology for me is a sort of patchwork quilt based on bits of truth gleaned from all the various eschatology camps. As you can imagine, insults and scorn consequently tend to come from all directions, since they all find something to criticize. I'm used to it by now, even from my husband who regards me as a traitorous heretic with perverse doctrines. Paul probably said it best when he wrote to the Roman believers, "Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own Master he stands or falls", and "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind". That is all any one of us can do, really.
    I have been thinking on and off about the preterist view of scripture for a while now. There is a wonderful Christian couple who really stand out as faithful servants of the Lord, selflessly giving of themselves, readily praying for others, ministering healing, deliverance etc, consecrated wholly to the Lord.


    They hold to the preterist view. This has been so difficult to get my head around what they believe in the Bible and what they don't. What they will amen and what they won't.

    This affects fellowship because they are so easy to love, yet because of their view that we are living in the millennial reign of Christ, they have to in some way see the rest of us Christians as being uninformed to the point of being duped?

    ~From my understanding, and off the top of my head, the millennial reign of Christ is:

    ~A literal reign of the Lord Jesus Christ from the physical Jerusalem on the seat of David (having entered through the Eastern Gate) after landing with His physical feet on the ground (Mount of Olives) upon His return. (Second Coming).

    ~A time of peace and prosperity for the whole world, with the Lord Jesus Christ ruling and reigning with a rod of iron.

    ~Jeremiah speaking about in those days (in the days of the millennial reign of Christ) people would live long and strong. A person dying at the age of 120 would be considered a mere child.

    ~World war 1 and 2 and the Holocaust surely make whatever regional war in Jerusalem look like a side show? Iow it has never been a time of tribulation such as never was no nor ever shall be.

    ~Every eye would have seen the coming of the Lord in the clouds of glory, all the graves of the Christians would have opened.

    ~Several other scriptures, the unholy ungodly ugly world we are living in, the knowledge explosion of the past 120 years and many other things not coming to mind now, all cause me to reject the preterist view.

    The only 2 things that feed into the preterist view for me are:

    ~The Lord coming for a spotless Bride (not sure that can be said for the church of the Lord Jesus Christ today but I do not know.
    ~Scriptures saying the Lord's return was soon, imminent, implying in the lifetimes of the writers of the NT.

    I suppose my greatest objection to the preterist view is that it has only been revealed to a very fringe group of Christians and this causes loss of fellowship throughout the greater body of Christ.
    Last edited by Esther; 05-20-2022, 08:02 AM.

    Comment


    • #47
      Hi again Esther,

      When people like yourself take the time to list their objections to Preterism, this is a good sign that you're not going to swallow something without proving it to be consistent with other scripture. The noble Bereans practiced the same thing, and it's a commendable habit.

      I have often heard others express the same opposition to Preterism that you say is your main objection. The question they pose is: If Preterism is true, then why would Preterists be able to see something from scripture now that wasn't evident to Christians in earlier generations? Aside from Solomon's statement that "there is nothing new under the sun", let's presume for the moment that Preterism actually IS a "new kid on the block". (I don't think it is as new a doctrine among students of the Word as many presume it to be, but we'll let that go for the moment.) Let's suppose Preterism truly IS a new understanding of scripture that no Christians before now had seen. Would this be the first time that fresh insight into God's Word has happened? Didn't Christ Himself once say that many had desired to see those things that the disciples were seeing and had NOT seen them? The disciples were blessed indeed to have Christ the Son of God physically with them and teaching them directly for more than three years. In this, the Twelve had an advantage that the previous prophets of earlier times did not have. Many times Christ cleared up the disciples' former understanding of things by saying, "Ye have heard it said...but I say unto you..." And He would then give them the true meaning of scripture that they had not been aware of until then.

      Didn't Paul say in Colossians that the "mystery of God" had formerly been HIDDEN from past ages, but was then being revealed to humanity - that God had always intended the believing Gentiles to be part of the family of God? This was an earth-shattering difference if one was a Jew of that generation. New understanding of what God had intended all along.

      Even the early church fathers engaged in long debates in councils over the simplest doctrines such as the deity of Christ; the practice of baptism; etc.. I have been told that a certain St. Gregory of Nissa in the 300's was debating the millennium with others, and contradicting those who believed in three resurrections (which I DO believe was God's plan). This proves that these matters did not have a consensus of opinion back then either.

      It seems to have been God's practice ever since creation to gradually reveal His truth in an incremental fashion. Eve had only the simplest of promises that her Seed would crush the serpent's head. From that point onward, God used various means to progressively reveal Himself through His dealings with men, and I think He is still continuing the same incremental progress in His revelation of His truths in scripture even today. Personally, I think that Preterism coming into current discussions today is part of that further revealing of God's truth to mankind, although there are some bugs in the system that need to be taken out - just like any other denomination has.

      You have listed many texts above that you believe to be related to the millennium. Actually, the only place that literal thousand-year period is described as such is found in those few verses of Revelation 20. All the other texts you are supplying above are never even mentioned as being identified with the millennium period of a literal thousand years. Tradition has connected them together with the millennium, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

      You spoke of the millennium requiring Christ to be sitting on the throne of His father David. That's not part of the millennium description in Revelation 20. Christ's reign on the throne of His father David had begun at His ascension on His resurrection day. This is why Peter on the day of Pentecost explained that God had already exalted Christ to that throne (Acts 2:29-36). As proof that Christ was then reigning from David's throne, Peter said that God had shed forth the sign of speaking in other known tongues that the Jews were seeing and hearing.

      But that "First resurrection" day in AD 33 was actually the ENDING point of the thousand-year millennium. We know that Satan was supposed to be loosed for a "short time" after the millennium had ended. That "short time" of Satan's release on earth John told his readers in Revelation 12:12 was already in progress while he was writing Revelation for them. An enraged Satan at that time knew he only had a "short time" left to operate in this world. This meant that the thousand millennium years had begun loing before John's days. It had begun all the way back in Solomon's days (when he laid the foundation stone for the temple in 968 / 967 BC). A thousand years later, Christ at His resurrection in AD 33 became the true foundation stone of the spiritual temple not made with hands. All during that time, Satan's deception of the nations had been bound by the fame of the temple of Solomon's kingdom spreading throughout the nations, and the surge of the prophets' ministries that brought the knowledge of Israel's God into written and spoken form.

      Scripture never described the millennium as producing worldwide peace and prosperity. All it says is that Satan's deception of the nations would be bound during that literal thousand years. That's it. Period. This does not mean that Satan would not TRY to deceive the nations during that time, but that his efforts of deceiving the nations would not work. It also does not mean that the nations of humanity could not manage to deceive THEMSELVES during that millennium. After all, the heart itself is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked all on its own. It also does not mean that Satan's lack of deceiving the nations would result in a saving knowledge about God for everyone in those nations. It also does not mean that a lack of Satan's deception for a literal thousand years would result in a sin-free world. For example, we are told that Adam was NOT DECEIVED, but he disobeyed anyway in spite of knowing what he was doing. Much of the presumed utopian conditions of the millennium are just that - an assumption.

      You mentioned the prophet Jeremiah (a mistype for Isaiah, I think) teaching about the New Heavens and the New Earth conditions. This is not the same thing as the millennium period of a thousand years. No time limitation at all is spoken of there in Isaiah 65, nor in Revelation's description of a New Heavens and a New Earth, nor in II Peter 3:13's anticipated New Heavens and New Earth. That New Heavens and New Earth in Isaiah 65 would include the death process, the birth of offspring, planting and harvesting and building houses, the presence of sinners, and prayers to God - none of which is really characteristic of the eternal state, and none of which speaks anything at all one way or the other about Satan's deception being bound.

      You spoke of the horrors of current world wars exceeding that AD 66-70 regional war in Judea, which in your mind would not make the AD 66-70 era the candidate for the unprecedented and unparalleled "Great Tribulation". There is one condition alone that made the AD 66-70 war unique above all other tribulations or world wars in all of history. The Jews had every unclean spirit of the demonic realm imprisoned within the walls of Jerusalem until the end of that period (Revelation 18:2). Christ had promised His own people in Matthew 12:43-45 that their "last state" would be worse than their "first state" when He was casting out devils from among them (and demon possession was quite prevalent in that generation). What made that AD 66-70 period of time the unprecedented "Great Tribulation" was in having those same unclean spirits which had been cast out of the Jewish people return along with seven devils more wicked than themselves before that "wicked generation" had passed away. There has never before been a city in a nation that has had the entire Satanic realm confined within its walls for a period of years. And this will never happen again, because God used that location of Jerusalem to completely destroy the Devil and his angels, as prophesied.

      You also spoke of "every eye" seeing Christ's return, and the graves of saints being opened at that return. A question: did Christ's grave need to be physically broken open to let Him be resurrected? He passed through the walls of the tomb that Saturday evening without the seal being disturbed. It was only later when the angels came to open the tomb for the women that the keepers of the tomb became so frightened they became as dead men. Christ had already been resurrected the night before that morning came. Any saint's resurrected body can pass through walls just like Christ did, without having their grave broken open to allow them to leave. As for "every eye" seeing Christ's return, that verse goes on to specifically define just who was going to be seeing Christ's return, and it was going to be specifically "them that pierced Him". It was those Jewish tribes who had betrayed and murdered Christ which would mourn when they saw Christ returning to the Mount of Olives, as predicted by Zechariah 14:4-5. It was a view of the bodily-returning Christ that the besieged people in Jerusalem saw back in AD 70. By every piece of internal scripture evidence and the physical archaeological proof, I am convinced this has already happened long ago. A resurrection event which will happen again for us in the future as well.

      As you have mentioned, the language of imminence used in scripture is a strong proof in Preterism's favor. It was the thing that first caught my attention - when reading scripture in the literal translations, other than the KJV that I memorized from childhood. There are far too many imminent time-related references in Revelation's prophecies and the entire NT that have to be ignored when arguing against Preterism. This need not cause a loss of fellowship with those who cannot bring themselves to believe in Preterist views, any more than differences in baptism or communion practices or church worship styles should divide us.




      Last edited by 3 Resurrections; 05-23-2022, 01:20 AM.

      Comment


      • #48
        Thank you @ Resurrections I respect your time and effort.

        I have briefly looked further into the teachings of Preterism and together with your explanations for this view of eschatology I have concluded:

        Even should I study hard with the answers of preterism to hand, I will fail the exam. It is just too convoluted and cryptic a view of the Bible.

        I suppose it is a kind of eschatological Pascal's wager.

        Thanks again for the interaction, .




        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post

          I have often heard others express the same opposition to Preterism that you say is your main objection. The question they pose is: If Preterism is true, then why would Preterists be able to see something from scripture now that wasn't evident to Christians in earlier generations? Aside from Solomon's statement that "there is nothing new under the sun", let's presume for the moment that Preterism actually IS a "new kid on the block". (I don't think it is as new a doctrine among students of the Word as many presume it to be, but we'll let that go for the moment.) Let's suppose Preterism truly IS a new understanding of scripture that no Christians before now had seen. Would this be the first time that fresh insight into God's Word has happened? Didn't Christ Himself once say that many had desired to see those things that the disciples were seeing and had NOT seen them? The disciples were blessed indeed to have Christ the Son of God physically with them and teaching them directly for more than three years. In this, the Twelve had an advantage that the previous prophets of earlier times did not have. Many times Christ cleared up the disciples' former understanding of things by saying, "Ye have heard it said...but I say unto you..." And He would then give them the true meaning of scripture that they had not been aware of until then.
          Yes, 3 Resurrections, yes, and not only has fresh insight come to us foolish disciples, but it has come through YOU. YOU are the woman God has chosen to put the Christian church further to sleep by telling them all the bad things happened to the Jews. Only YOU loved God and the truth enough to discover that "as lightning flashes from east to west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be" REALLY means "only a few Jews will see it and no one will leave testimony that they saw it" and when He warns not to believe anyone claiming "there he is in the wilderness", He has given YOU, an uppity Western woman who flaunts her open defiance of her husband and head on a public forum, the authority to OVERTURN His word on the matter and demand that everyone believe "there he is in the wilderness" in an event we have no evidence anyone saw. Blessed are you among women, 3 resurrections.

          You have listed many texts above that you believe to be related to the millennium. Actually, the only place that literal thousand-year period is described as such is found in those few verses of Revelation 20. All the other texts you are supplying above are never even mentioned as being identified with the millennium period of a literal thousand years. Tradition has connected them together with the millennium, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.
          Scripture Verse: Hebrews 4

          1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

          “So I declared on oath in my anger,
          ‘They shall never enter my rest.’”



          And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”

          6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

          “Today, if you hear his voice,
          do not harden your hearts.”



          8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

          © Copyright Original Source



          I have mentioned the "1000 years to a day" statements found elsewhere in Scripture that support the obvious claim being made here that there remains a Sabbath day of rest for creation to mirror the Sabbath God took in His creation week, that day being 1,000 years. After redeeming us, Christ came to reverse the curse, and to flaunt His authority and power over "the nations". By giving Him a "secret" return and saying the world will remain as crap as it is until God just destroys it one day to "take us to heaven" is insulting to Him on the order of blasphemy. The meek will inherit a restored and glorified earth, not symbolism.

          A "Sabbath" is not some indeterminate period of time or eternity. It's one day out of seven. And in the context of Scripture speaking of the Sabbath-rest of the millenium, that one day is one thousand years.

          You also ignored Esther's point about people living over 100 being considered "young". When in history has that happened? It only happened immediately after the beginning of the curse in the days of Adam when the effects of the curse were only beginning to be felt. It will happen again on God's Sabbath day of rest when the effects of the curse are being reversed.

          You spoke of the millennium requiring Christ to be sitting on the throne of His father David. That's not part of the millennium description in Revelation 20. Christ's reign on the throne of His father David had begun at His ascension on His resurrection day. This is why Peter on the day of Pentecost explained that God had already exalted Christ to that throne (Acts 2:29-36). As proof that Christ was then reigning from David's throne, Peter said that God had shed forth the sign of speaking in other known tongues that the Jews were seeing and hearing.
          Scripture Verse: Isaiah 16

          4 When oppressors are no more and violence has ceased, when tyrants are destroyed from the earth, 5 then, in loving kindness,shall a throne be set up in the abode of David,and in faithfulness a judge sit on it who will maintain justice and expedite righteousness.

          © Copyright Original Source



          Has violence ceased and we missed it? Have tyrants been done away with and we did not know it? Or is 3 Resurrections batpoop crazy?

          But that "First resurrection" day in AD 33 was actually the ENDING point of the thousand-year millennium. We know that Satan was supposed to be loosed for a "short time" after the millennium had ended. That "short time" of Satan's release on earth John told his readers in Revelation 12:12 was already in progress while he was writing Revelation for them. An enraged Satan at that time knew he only had a "short time" left to operate in this world. This meant that the thousand millennium years had begun loing before John's days. It had begun all the way back in Solomon's days (when he laid the foundation stone for the temple in 968 / 967 BC). A thousand years later, Christ at His resurrection in AD 33 became the true foundation stone of the spiritual temple not made with hands. All during that time, Satan's deception of the nations had been bound by the fame of the temple of Solomon's kingdom spreading throughout the nations, and the surge of the prophets' ministries that brought the knowledge of Israel's God into written and spoken form.

          Scripture never described the millennium as producing worldwide peace and prosperity. All it says is that Satan's deception of the nations would be bound during that literal thousand years. That's it. Period. This does not mean that Satan would not TRY to deceive the nations during that time, but that his efforts of deceiving the nations would not work. It also does not mean that the nations of humanity could not manage to deceive THEMSELVES during that millennium. After all, the heart itself is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked all on its own. It also does not mean that Satan's lack of deceiving the nations would result in a saving knowledge about God for everyone in those nations. It also does not mean that a lack of Satan's deception for a literal thousand years would result in a sin-free world. For example, we are told that Adam was NOT DECEIVED, but he disobeyed anyway in spite of knowing what he was doing. Much of the presumed utopian conditions of the millennium are just that - an assumption.
          What you said in the underlined is just a lie. It's not possible that you misunderstand what is plainly stated in Scripture, so you're clearly lying.

          Scripture Verse: Revelation 20

          1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

          4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

          7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

          11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

          © Copyright Original Source



          The Abyss is not an idea or a concept or a philosophical hurdle, it's a literal place:

          Scripture Verse: Luke 8

          30 Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”

          “Legion,” he replied, because many demons had gone into him. 31 And they begged Jesus repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.

          © Copyright Original Source



          Some context clues that also help us determine it is an actual location is that it's called a "prison". If Satan is free to roam about as he pleases while "in the Abyss", then it's not a prison. It is also said to be "locked and sealed", something which one cannot do to a philosophical construct, but one can very much do to a prison. And for you to say "that's it" to the notion that all Scripture is saying is that the devil would have a harder time trying to deceive is pure, unadulterated lying. It says he will be bound to KEEP him from deceiving. At all. Period.

          Also, the judgment of all of humanity immediately ["then"] follows the period Satan is released. Was that another thing we missed?

          And here is how no less of an authority than the Lord Jesus described the devil before His resurrection when you claim he was still "bound" and impotent:

          Scripture Verse: John 12

          31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

          © Copyright Original Source



          [Also, it says the devil will be "driven out", not destroyed as you foolishly and deceptively claim.]

          Scripture Verse: John 14

          30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming.

          © Copyright Original Source



          And here is what the "elders of Israel" were doing in the very temple you claim "bound" Satan and displayed the Lord to the nations:

          Scripture Verse: Ezekiel 8

          6 And he said to me, “Son of man, do you see what they are doing—the utterly detestable things the Israelites are doing here, things that will drive me far from my sanctuary? But you will see things that are even more detestable.”

          7 Then he brought me to the entrance to the court. I looked, and I saw a hole in the wall. 8 He said to me, “Son of man, now dig into the wall.” So I dug into the wall and saw a doorway there.

          9 And he said to me, “Go in and see the wicked and detestable things they are doing here.” 10 So I went in and looked, and I saw portrayed all over the walls all kinds of crawling things and unclean animals and all the idols of Israel. 11 In front of them stood seventy elders of Israel, and Jaazaniah son of Shaphan was standing among them. Each had a censer in his hand, and a fragrant cloud of incense was rising.

          12 He said to me, “Son of man, have you seen what the elders of Israel are doing in the darkness, each at the shrine of his own idol? They say, ‘The Lord does not see us; the Lord has forsaken the land.’” 13 Again, he said, “You will see them doing things that are even more detestable.”

          © Copyright Original Source



          So who is correct, 3 resurrections? You or God? Was the temple a "glorious center of the knowledge of God to the nations" or was it the site of the most "detestable" idolatry in the world? Tough choice. You or God. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

          You spoke of the horrors of current world wars exceeding that AD 66-70 regional war in Judea, which in your mind would not make the AD 66-70 era the candidate for the unprecedented and unparalleled "Great Tribulation". There is one condition alone that made the AD 66-70 war unique above all other tribulations or world wars in all of history. The Jews had every unclean spirit of the demonic realm imprisoned within the walls of Jerusalem until the end of that period (Revelation 18:2). Christ had promised His own people in Matthew 12:43-45 that their "last state" would be worse than their "first state" when He was casting out devils from among them (and demon possession was quite prevalent in that generation). What made that AD 66-70 period of time the unprecedented "Great Tribulation" was in having those same unclean spirits which had been cast out of the Jewish people return along with seven devils more wicked than themselves before that "wicked generation" had passed away. There has never before been a city in a nation that has had the entire Satanic realm confined within its walls for a period of years. And this will never happen again, because God used that location of Jerusalem to completely destroy the Devil and his angels, as prophesied.
          Aside from presenting no evidence that the "entire demonic realm" was "contained within the walls of Jerusalem", you continue to slander the city God has chosen for His "eternal dwelling":

          Scripture Verse: Psalm 132

          13 For the LORD has chosen Zion;

          He has desired it for His home:

          14 “This is My resting place forever and ever;

          here I will dwell, for I have desired this home.

          © Copyright Original Source



          And the citation you give in Revelation 18 is itself alluding to a verse in Isaiah:

          Scripture Verse: Isaiah 21

          8 And the lookout[a] shouted,

          “Day after day, my lord, I stand on the watchtower;
          every night I stay at my post.
          9 Look, here comes a man in a chariot
          with a team of horses.
          And he gives back the answer:
          ‘Babylon has fallen, has fallen!
          All the images of its gods
          lie shattered on the ground!’”


          10 My people who are crushed on the threshing floor,
          I tell you what I have heard
          from the Lord Almighty,
          from the God of Israel.

          © Copyright Original Source



          Which in context is God pledging to destroy Babylon after using it as a weapon to chastise His people. Jerusalem and Babylon are never equated in Scripture. And that's because God is not the author of confusion. Jerusalem is the city of His people. Babylon is the city of His enemies.

          You also spoke of "every eye" seeing Christ's return, and the graves of saints being opened at that return. A question: did Christ's grave need to be physically broken open to let Him be resurrected? He passed through the walls of the tomb that Saturday evening without the seal being disturbed. It was only later when the angels came to open the tomb for the women that the keepers of the tomb became so frightened they became as dead men. Christ had already been resurrected the night before that morning came. Any saint's resurrected body can pass through walls just like Christ did, without having their grave broken open to allow them to leave. As for "every eye" seeing Christ's return, that verse goes on to specifically define just who was going to be seeing Christ's return, and it was going to be specifically "them that pierced Him". It was those Jewish tribes who had betrayed and murdered Christ which would mourn when they saw Christ returning to the Mount of Olives, as predicted by Zechariah 14:4-5. It was a view of the bodily-returning Christ that the besieged people in Jerusalem saw back in AD 70. By every piece of internal scripture evidence and the physical archaeological proof, I am convinced this has already happened long ago. A resurrection event which will happen again for us in the future as well.
          Scripture Verse: Revelation 1


          7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
          and “every eye will see him,
          even those who pierced him”;
          and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
          So shall it be! Amen.

          © Copyright Original Source



          Every eye means every eye, 3 resurrections, you repulsive heretic. "Those who pierced him" constitute a subgroup which "EVEN" is included among the "every eye" which will see him. There you go lying again.

          As you have mentioned, the language of imminence used in scripture is a strong proof in Preterism's favor. It was the thing that first caught my attention - when reading scripture in the literal translations, other than the KJV that I memorized from childhood. There are far too many imminent time-related references in Revelation's prophecies and the entire NT that have to be ignored when arguing against Preterism. This need not cause a loss of fellowship with those who cannot bring themselves to believe in Preterist views, any more than differences in baptism or communion practices or church worship styles should divide us.
          "Imminent" to a God for whom 1,000 year is like a day is very different from "immanency" to our limited viewpoint. Peter and Paul's claims that "there will be terrible times in 'the last days'" makes no sense if they anticipated a soon return of Christ. Peter specifically says that His return will seem as unlikely to scoffers as the historicity of the flood, a nonsensical claim in the very time period he appeared and according to you produced many thousands of people who had risen from the dead and were walking around in immortal bodies already at the time Peter wrote it.

          Scripture Verse: 2 Corinthians

          14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial[b]? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?

          © Copyright Original Source



          You are a liar, deceiver and disobedient to the real Christ in service of a fake, idolatrous Christ of your own wicked imaginings. No real follower of Jesus can or should have fellowship with you.

          Comment


          • #50
            Hi Darfius,

            At present, I do not have the time to respond to every point you are making (actually some of which I agree with), since I have 3 dump truck loads of topsoil to wheelbarrow to my back yard, one shovel at a time. Plus drapery deadlines pushing me by mid-month. Plus a husband who is getting part of his foot amputated in surgery at this very moment. Plus our house renovation project for which I am acting as a sort of general contractor for all of it.

            I have to push myself to respond to you anyway, since your very vitriolic style tends to trigger my PTSD - a long-term gift from a spiritually abusive church and from some 20 years of abuse by a close Christian family member. Please try to tone it down a notch. Such personal blasts are not only abusive in and of themselves, but they reflect badly on the Lord you are trying to represent. If an unbeliever were reading your responses, your language would repel them from considering Christianity as a religion of brotherly love.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
              Hi Darfius,

              At present, I do not have the time to respond to every point you are making (actually some of which I agree with), since I have 3 dump truck loads of topsoil to wheelbarrow to my back yard, one shovel at a time. Plus drapery deadlines pushing me by mid-month. Plus a husband who is getting part of his foot amputated in surgery at this very moment. Plus our house renovation project for which I am acting as a sort of general contractor for all of it.

              I have to push myself to respond to you anyway, since your very vitriolic style tends to trigger my PTSD - a long-term gift from a spiritually abusive church and from some 20 years of abuse by a close Christian family member. Please try to tone it down a notch. Such personal blasts are not only abusive in and of themselves, but they reflect badly on the Lord you are trying to represent. If an unbeliever were reading your responses, your language would repel them from considering Christianity as a religion of brotherly love.
              While I am sorry to hear of your troubles, if you want to act like a man I'm going to treat you like a man. The same God of love commanded the wholesale slaughter of men, women and children in the Old Testament (something I'm certain your worldview contains no rational explanation for), so if people can't handle harsh talk towards a heretic, they will never grasp that, which they need to grasp to have a real picture of and relationship with God instead of the fake ones most people have which have led us to the sorry state we're in.

              The same Satan you try to convince people (to their hurt) has been destroyed used "tolerance" as the banner by which he has undermined everything good and decent in the world to bring us to a point where society is prepared to accept the Antichrist. I have no tolerance for your lies and deception or pretense at civility by telling us you mend drapes. If Satan can appear as an angel of light, someone who belongs to him (as evidenced by their lies) can certainly appear as a drape maker.

              If you can humble yourself and repent, I will welcome you back with open arms, but until then, like Paul I will hand you over to Satan with the best verbal butt whooping I can muster as a warning of "unclean! unclean!" for any observers.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                While I am sorry to hear of your troubles, if you want to act like a man I'm going to treat you like a man. The same God of love commanded the wholesale slaughter of men, women and children in the Old Testament (something I'm certain your worldview contains no rational explanation for), so if people can't handle harsh talk towards a heretic, they will never grasp that, which they need to grasp to have a real picture of and relationship with God instead of the fake ones most people have which have led us to the sorry state we're in.

                The same Satan you try to convince people (to their hurt) has been destroyed used "tolerance" as the banner by which he has undermined everything good and decent in the world to bring us to a point where society is prepared to accept the Antichrist. I have no tolerance for your lies and deception or pretense at civility by telling us you mend drapes. If Satan can appear as an angel of light, someone who belongs to him (as evidenced by their lies) can certainly appear as a drape maker.

                If you can humble yourself and repent, I will welcome you back with open arms, but until then, like Paul I will hand you over to Satan with the best verbal butt whooping I can muster as a warning of "unclean! unclean!" for any observers.
                No, love covers a multiple of transgressions which include different views about end times @ Darfius. I do agree that the teachings of Preterism are heresy though.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
                  Hi Darfius,

                  At present, I do not have the time to respond to every point you are making (actually some of which I agree with), since I have 3 dump truck loads of topsoil to wheelbarrow to my back yard, one shovel at a time. Plus drapery deadlines pushing me by mid-month. Plus a husband who is getting part of his foot amputated in surgery at this very moment. Plus our house renovation project for which I am acting as a sort of general contractor for all of it.

                  I have to push myself to respond to you anyway, since your very vitriolic style tends to trigger my PTSD - a long-term gift from a spiritually abusive church and from some 20 years of abuse by a close Christian family member. Please try to tone it down a notch. Such personal blasts are not only abusive in and of themselves, but they reflect badly on the Lord you are trying to represent. If an unbeliever were reading your responses, your language would repel them from considering Christianity as a religion of brotherly love.
                  3 Resurrections I pray the Lord will strengthen you and extend whatever help you need to get through this terrible time. xx

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Esther View Post

                    No, love covers a multiple of transgressions which include different views about end times @ Darfius. I do agree that the teachings of Preterism are heresy though.
                    I admire your compassion, Esther, and may God bless you for it. But in this instance your compassion--while not misplaced--is mistakenly expressed. Imagine if instead of killing the prophets of Baal, Elijah had said, "No, love covers over a multitude of sins". He might have temporarily felt warm and fuzzy inside, but then Jezebel would have killed him, the nation would have irrevocably sunk into paganism and the world would have fallen into a darkness that perhaps not even the Lord's coming could have saved us from. Recall that if the future Elijah is unsuccessful at "turning the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children to their fathers", God will destroy the earth, so what I am saying is not blasphemous, but accurate.

                    Also, here is the other instance of "cover a multitude of sins" in Scripture:

                    Scripture Verse: James 5:20

                    consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Now we can't pick and choose what Scripture to heed, we have to make sense and reconcile all of them. Can the "love" of the first instance mean indulging a sinner in the error of his [or her] way? Certainly not. In fact, by turning a sinner from the error of their way, one is saving their soul from death [both the first death and the second death (Rev 20:14)] and thereby loving them.

                    It also bears mentioning that Peter is speaking of love between Christian brethren, something which you admit 3 Resurrections is not when you admit she is espousing heresy. In fact, it is a modern heresy which suggests we simply accept what comes out of people's mouths when they say they are Christians and pay no attention to their actions (judge by their deeds as Christ commands us to do).

                    So when I say I will forgive and extend courtesy to 3 Resurrections when she repents, I am following the Biblical mandate to show covenant love to the brethren by extending her the offer of actually becoming my Christian brethren by obedience to Christ. Until then, the only love I am even allowed to show her is the rod of correction and "handing her over to Satan" to (hopefully) compel her to salvific sanity in her misery.

                    It can be hard to be--or be perceived to be--"mean" to people, but it helps to understand that when Jesus said He came to give us life, He didn't mean the extension of our physical subsistence. He meant what Job had--his integrity. Job prayed to die several times during his ordeal, but he never let go of his integrity. Meanwhile his wealthy and comfortable (and self-righteous) friends couldn't understand that he was more alive than they were. And once Job had displayed that he cared more for life than the dressings of life, God also blessed him with those. I want 3 resurrections to have integrity, because I know that without it she is dead and will die. So if I make her uncomfortable, I hope thereby to "goad" her into seeking the only real comfort available to any of us--a true relationship with God as made a reality by integrity.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                      Scripture Verse: Hebrews 4

                      1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

                      “So I declared on oath in my anger,
                      ‘They shall never enter my rest.’”



                      And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”

                      6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

                      “Today, if you hear his voice,
                      do not harden your hearts.”



                      8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      I have mentioned the "1000 years to a day" statements found elsewhere in Scripture that support the obvious claim being made here that there remains a Sabbath day of rest for creation to mirror the Sabbath God took in His creation week, that day being 1,000 years. After redeeming us, Christ came to reverse the curse, and to flaunt His authority and power over "the nations". By giving Him a "secret" return and saying the world will remain as crap as it is until God just destroys it one day to "take us to heaven" is insulting to Him on the order of blasphemy. The meek will inherit a restored and glorified earth, not symbolism.

                      A "Sabbath" is not some indeterminate period of time or eternity. It's one day out of seven. And in the context of Scripture speaking of the Sabbath-rest of the millenium, that one day is one thousand years.

                      You also ignored Esther's point about people living over 100 being considered "young". When in history has that happened? It only happened immediately after the beginning of the curse in the days of Adam when the effects of the curse were only beginning to be felt. It will happen again on God's Sabbath day of rest when the effects of the curse are being reversed.
                      According to classical Jewish sources, the Hebrew year 6000 (from sunset of 29 September 2239[2] until nightfall of 16 September 2240[3] on the Gregorian calendar) marks the latest time for the initiation of the Messianic Age. The Talmud,[4] Midrash,[5] and the Kabbalistic work, the Zohar,[6] state that the date by which the Messiah must appear is 6,000 years from creation. According to tradition, the Hebrew calendar started at the time of Creation, placed at 3761 BCE.[7] The current (2021/2022) Hebrew year is 5782.

                      The belief that the seventh millennium will correspond to the Messianic Age is founded upon a universalized application of the concept of Shabbat—the 7th day of the week—the sanctified 'day of rest'.

                      One translation of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) reads

                      Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

                      For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.[8]

                      This tradition maintains that each day of the week corresponds to one thousand years of creation: Just as the six days of the work week culminate in the sanctified seventh day of Shabbat, so too will the six millennia of creation culminate in the sanctified seventh millennium (Hebrew years 6000–7000) — the Messianic Age.

                      Just as Shabbat is the sanctified 'day of rest' and peace, a time representing joyful satisfaction with the labors completed within the previous 6 days,[9][10] so too the seventh millennium will correspond to a universal 'day of rest' and peace, a time of 'completeness' of the 'work' performed in the previous six millennia.

                      The Talmud[11] also draws parallels between the Shmita (Sabbatical) year and the seventh millennium: For six 'years', or millennia, the earth will be worked, whilst during the seventh 'year', or millennium, the world will remain 'fallow', in a state of 'rest' and universal peace.
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_6000

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        The Talmud[11] also draws parallels between the Shmita (Sabbatical) year and the seventh millennium: For six 'years', or millennia, the earth will be worked, whilst during the seventh 'year', or millennium, the world will remain 'fallow', in a state of 'rest' and universal peace.

                        This is interesting Darfius !

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                          I've been hearing that interpretation for decades. Wonder if the interpretation occurs prior to the Cold War?
                          It is as old as the 1917 edition of the Scofield Bible. Whether it is in the first, 1909, edition, I do not know.

                          The interpretation is at least as old as 1855: https://www.google.co.uk/books/editi...sec=frontcover
                          Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 06-10-2022, 01:06 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            Seems not. Medieval times, starting with cartographers then adopted by cartoonists. Russia didn't actually adopt the bear as symbolic of anything to do with the nation until 1980.
                            Victorian cartoons show the Russian Bear - selection here: https://victorianweb.org/history/forpol/russia.html

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                              Victorian cartoons show the Russian Bear - selection here: https://victorianweb.org/history/forpol/russia.html
                              Other countries did use the bear to depict Russia, yes.
                              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                                It is as old as the 1917 edition of the Scofield Bible. Whether it is in the first, 1909, edition, I do not know.

                                The interpretation is at least as old as 1855: https://www.google.co.uk/books/editi...sec=frontcover
                                That's interesting. Thanks for sharing.
                                "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                                "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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