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Russia, the king of the North, the Bear

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  • #16
    For the Gog and Magog prophecy from Ezekiel 38-39 which was duplicated in Revelation 20, those "four quarters of the earth" out of which Gog's army was gathered was the same as the "four corners" of THE LAND OF ISRAEL in particular, as found in Ezekiel 7:2-3. God prophesied against the land of Israel, saying, "An end, the end is come upon the FOUR CORNERS OF THE LAND; now is the end come upon thee..."

    Gog would come out of his place in the north parts of ISRAEL, which would be "Galilee of the nations" - the northernmost quarter of Israel. Galilee was known to be the location in the far north of Israel where rebels against Rome originated, such as Judas of Galilee who had made insurrection against Rome in Acts 5:37. (These four quarters of the land of Israel are a bit different than other scripture predictions which involve "the four winds of heaven", which would tend to have a global application.)

    Scripture never says that Gog the chief prince would have to be in league with the entire nations of Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, etc. In the LXX for Ezekiel 38:5 , all it says is that individuals who had descended from these countries would be present within Gog's army, ("Persian, Ethiopians, Libyans" etc.) which was the case with Simon bar Giora's army numbering 40,000 which included mixed nationalities culled from the nations around Israel in those first century days.

    That Zealot rebellious activity was already circulating in Israel in Christ's days, which is why Christ made mention of that increasing civil strife within Israel itself . Christ asked, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division. For FROM HENCEFORTH there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father;...." (Luke 12:51-53). This division among families was more than just OC Judaism versus Christ's NC disciples. Even in Christ's days on earth, those in Israel wishing to preserve the status quo with Rome in charge became increasingly opposed to those with Zealot sympathies who wished to rebel and cast off their Roman governance. This division in families over this issue extended even to the high priesthood's family (the high priest Ananias who put Paul on trial, and his son Eleazar, governor of the temple in AD 66 who favored the rebels against his father's wishes).

    Gog the chief prince (Simon bar Giora) capitalized on this civil discord among Israelite families, and he recruited restless malcontents who wanted to see a change of governance in Israel by casting off the Roman yoke. The "every man's sword shall be against his brother" was the result of this internecine warfare in Israel in those first century days.

    Anyone who thinks this battle of Gog is descriptive of modern warfare with horsemen, "all of them handling swords", with shields, bucklers, spears, bows and arrows, and hand-staves is strongly deluded. This was an ancient battle that has already taken place. The Zealot forces in Israel were well known for the distinctive, concealed curved daggers they carried (a "Sica"), and which is why the Zealots were nicknamed "sicarii". Swordsmanship was a notable feature of this Gog battle.
    Last edited by 3 Resurrections; 05-12-2022, 04:26 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Esther View Post
      In the Bible, Russia is the king of the North (North of Israel) also understood to represent the Bear. I heard such an interesting observation on one of the Christian channels, that an injured bear is far more dangerous than one that is not. Putin is injured I think. The Ezekiel 38 war could well be on its way.
      Just out of curiosity, Esther, do you hold a permilliennialist belief?
      "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

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      • #18
        Originally posted by seanD View Post

        Just out of curiosity, Esther, do you hold a permilliennialist belief?
        Yes of course don't we all?

        I do not believe we are living in the millennial reign of the Lord Jesus Christ at all.
        I do not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture.

        I see the pre-trib and the preterist views as the extremes with flimsy scriptural support.

        I believe we will be caught up (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air at the last trumpet.
        I believe this will occur before the wrath of God is poured out.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Esther View Post

          Yes of course don't we all?

          I do not believe we are living in the millennial reign of the Lord Jesus Christ at all.
          I do not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture.

          I see the pre-trib and the preterist views as the extremes with flimsy scriptural support.

          I believe we will be caught up (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air at the last trumpet.
          I believe this will occur before the wrath of God is poured out.
          Excellent. That's basically my view.

          Now, if you hold the belief that the thousand year reign of Christ is future, then Rev 20:8-9 seems to plainly state that the war of Ezekiel 38 occurs after that period, not before, unless we assume the same thing happens a second time with the same exact players, which seems pretty contrived since that event is not described the same anywhere in the Olivet Discourse (i.e Luke 21:20) or anywhere else in the NT (i.e. Rev 11).

          Also, Russia already has their hands full in Ukraine, and (barring a nuclear holocaust) Russia will undoubtedly win that war eventually, but so far it's a slow grind and they'll likely be so beaten up -- physically, emotionally, and economically -- that's it's extremely difficult to believe, even if they had help from other eastern countries, they'd actually go on to wage yet another war that would include the US and all other western allies against them. It just doesn't seem very plausible in our present time and situation.
          Last edited by seanD; 05-15-2022, 09:41 AM.
          "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

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          • #20
            Originally posted by seanD View Post

            Also, Russia already has their hands full in Ukraine, and (barring a nuclear holocaust) Russia will undoubtedly win that war eventually.
            So I had thought until today. Reports that they have lost an estimated 1/3 of the ground forces already give cause for doubt. How many more can they lose before they find themselves fighting a defensive war?
            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
            "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              So I had thought until today. Reports that they have lost an estimated 1/3 of the ground forces already give cause for doubt. How many more can they lose before they find themselves fighting a defensive war?
              I don't know who to believe in regards to the how the war is going.

              My point though still stands. Russia, in light of the current war in Ukraine, doesn't seem like it will have any power or spirit left to wage a war like that described in Ezekiel. Whether they're winning now or not is beside the point.

              Btw, please don't manipulate my texts. Thanks.
              Last edited by seanD; 05-15-2022, 10:00 AM.
              "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

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              • #22
                Originally posted by seanD View Post

                I don't know who to believe in regards to the how the war is going.

                My point though still stands. Russia, in light of the current war in Ukraine, doesn't seem like it will have any power or spirit left to wage a war like that described in Ezekiel. Whether they're winning now or not is beside the point.

                Btw, please don't manipulate my texts. Thanks.
                Be assured, I will in future be careful to wait for the full ten minutes to elapse before responding to anything that you post.
                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  Be assured, I will in future be careful to wait for the full ten minutes to elapse before responding to anything that you post.
                  No, you edited out my comma at the end of "eventually" and added a period. And I'm guessing you did that because you omitted the part where I pretty much conceded your argument about how Russia is doing in the war: "but so far it's a slow grind and they'll likely be so beaten up -- physically, emotionally, and economically."

                  Please don't be that slimy and dishonest. Thanks.
                  "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by seanD View Post

                    No, you edited out my comma at the end of "eventually" and added a period. And I'm guessing you did that because you omitted the part where I pretty much conceded your argument about how Russia is doing in the war: "but so far it's a slow grind and they'll likely be so beaten up -- physically, emotionally, and economically."

                    Please don't be that slimy and dishonest. Thanks.
                    Also, Russia already has their hands full in Ukraine, and (barring a nuclear holocaust) Russia will undoubtedly win that war eventually, but so far it's a slow grind and they'll likely be so beaten up -- physically, emotionally, and economically -- that's it's extremely difficult to believe, even if they had help from other eastern countries, they'd actually go on to wage yet another war that would include the US and all other western allies against them. It just doesn't seem very plausible in our present time and situation.
                    With the part that I quoted underlined.

                    Nothing in what you posted in the following section changes the basic claim that Russia will win. I was responding strictly to that part of your post. No misrepresentation was conducted, nor even intended.

                    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                    "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post



                      With the part that I quoted underlined.

                      Nothing in what you posted in the following section changes the basic claim that Russia will win. I was responding strictly to that part of your post. No misrepresentation was conducted, nor even intended.
                      My argument was similar to yours about Russia and the war. The point I was making is irrelevant to whether they'll actually "win" in the end or not, so you editing out my comma was not just dishonest but pointless.
                      "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by seanD View Post

                        My argument was similar to yours about Russia and the war. The point I was making is irrelevant to whether they'll actually "win" in the end or not, so you editing out my comma was not just dishonest but pointless.
                        The claim that there was any dishonesty in my post is itself false, and the record is plain enough for anyone who wants to check it for themselves anyway. I confess to some confusion about why you should be falsely accusing me of dishonesty, but I'm sure you have your reasons.
                        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                        "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          The claim that there was any dishonesty in my post is itself false, and the record is plain enough for anyone who wants to check it for themselves anyway. I confess to some confusion about why you should be falsely accusing me of dishonesty, but I'm sure you have your reasons.
                          Editing someone's post and changing the text is dishonest, bro. Don't edit my posts again, period.
                          "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by seanD View Post
                            Editing someone's post and changing the text is dishonest, bro. Don't edit my posts again, period.
                            You stated (in an earlier post) that you expected Russia to win in the war with Ukraine: a claim which I said I had assumed was correct "until today" (the day when I responded).

                            There - you see. No change to your post involved, and I made no change to the meaning of your post: nor does the above differ from the relevant section of the post in which I quoted the relevant section of your post.

                            You further stated that you believed the war would leave Russia critically weakened. I have no doubt that you are correct in that assessment.
                            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                            "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              You stated (in an earlier post) that you expected Russia to win in the war with Ukraine: a claim which I said I had assumed was correct "until today" (the day when I responded).

                              There - you see. No change to your post involved, and I made no change to the meaning of your post: nor does the above differ from the relevant section of the post in which I quoted the relevant section of your post.

                              You further stated that you believed the war would leave Russia critically weakened. I have no doubt that you are correct in that assessment.
                              The reason I said they'll likely "win" is because I really don't see any scenario where Russia retreats back to Russia and takes a humiliating defeat without taking desperate action if it comes to that.

                              I see only two end results in this war: Either Ukraine troops will whittle down to the point there's an eventual concession and ceasefire, but the toll on Russian will be too great to start another war with a western country and its allies. Or the war will grind on to the point Putin gets impatient and frustrated and uses a nuke, which will undoubtedly cause a chain reaction with NATO in response, and that's why I said "barring a nuclear holocaust." In the latter scenario everyone loses.

                              But, again, my main point is that in either scenario, I doubt Russia will be in any shape to mount a war described in Ezekiel.
                              "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by seanD View Post

                                The reason I said they'll likely "win" is because I really don't see any scenario where Russia retreats back to Russia and takes a humiliating defeat without taking desperate action if it comes to that.

                                I see only two end results in this war: Either Ukraine troops will whittle down to the point there's an eventual concession and ceasefire, but the toll on Russian will be too great to start another war with a western country and its allies. Or the war will grind on to the point Putin gets impatient and frustrated and uses a nuke, which will undoubtedly cause a chain reaction with NATO in response, and that's why I said "barring a nuclear holocaust." In the latter scenario everyone loses.

                                But, again, my main point is that in either scenario, I doubt Russia will be in any shape to mount a war described in Ezekiel.
                                On that last point - agreed. Assuming the reports are anywhere near reliable, it won't take much more to put Russia in a position where her ability to defend her own territory or even to hold Crimea will be compromised. The risk will come when the materiel and personnel losses have been recovered, and strategies developed to prevent a repeat of this debacle - but that might take less than twenty years.
                                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                                "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

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