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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But see above...
    Nothing above addresses the fact that Judas was foreknown to Jesus to be bound for hell.


    For now, but Jesus has the keys of death and hell (Rev. 1:18), keys can be used to bring people out.
    The keys to death and hell will only be used at the very end to cast those into the lake of fire. It has nothing to do with believers.


    That's a good point, but after Jesus' warning, he tells his friends not to be afraid:

    "I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him! Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? And not one of them is forgotten before God. 7 Why, even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not; you are of more value than many sparrows." (Luke 12:4–7)
    He tells them to persevere. To not give in to apostasy just because the Romans will kill their bodies. He tells them the only one to fear is God, and only if you walk away. Jesus tells them how important they are to God, and that even their own murder at the hands of human enemies won't stop His love for them. Again, nothing to do with any purgatory


    But being present with the Lord may be painful, for some believers (1 John 2:28, Luke 12:47-48).
    1 John 2:28 refers to the Parousia and those who are alive at that time, not our deaths before it happens. Luke 12:47-48 divides the servants into those who obeyed that receive rewards and those who rebelled who the master will "assign him a place with the unbelievers." Apostasy. There is no purgatory in either verse.


    And if there is no intermediate state, then why is the time of the perfecting of believers placed at Christ's coming, not at the moment of death (1 Cor. 1:8)?
    Because that is when our spirit will be reunited with our bodies. Our ultimate perfect state. Again, nothing to do with any purgatory.

    And as far as Abraham's bosom, again note that the rich man was in hell because he received his good things in life, not because he did not have faith.
    No. The rich man was in hades DESPITE receiving good things in life. He wants to warn his family about the same disobedience he engaged in, which resulted in his being where he was. Unbelief in Moses and the prophets. The parable makes it clear that he was there because he was unfaithful to the Torah. Again, there is no evidence supporting a purgatory for the saints.

    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post



      But doesn't "friends" here include those who were clean (John 13:10)? Thus this warning included those bound for glory, with possible time in hell.

      Blessings,
      Lee
      But what in this verse hints that this "possible time in hell" would be purgatory? Their being clean now doesn't guarantee an eternal state. Hebrews 6:4-5 describes of apostates "those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age". I don't know any way that present discipleship could be described more positively than that; in any other context, a pastor could write a five point sermon about the Christian life based on that description.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        Nothing above addresses the fact that Judas was foreknown to Jesus to be bound for hell.
        With which I agree, but you missed my point: Doesn't "friends" here include those who were clean (John 13:10)? Thus this warning included those bound for glory, with possible time in hell.

        The keys to death and hell will only be used at the very end to cast those into the lake of fire. It has nothing to do with believers.
        Scripture doesn't tell us what the keys to death and hell will be used for. But the keys to the kingdom of heaven are used for binding and loosing (Mt. 16:19).

        He tells them to persevere. To not give in to apostasy just because the Romans will kill their bodies. He tells them the only one to fear is God, and only if you walk away. Jesus tells them how important they are to God, and that even their own murder at the hands of human enemies won't stop His love for them. Again, nothing to do with any purgatory
        No, this is not a warning about apostacy, since Jesus tells them not to fear.

        1 John 2:28 refers to the Parousia and those who are alive at that time, not our deaths before it happens. Luke 12:47-48 divides the servants into those who obeyed that receive rewards and those who rebelled who the master will "assign him a place with the unbelievers." Apostasy. There is no purgatory in either verse.
        Well, my point was that being with the Lord may involve pain for some believers.

        Because that is when our spirit will be reunited with our bodies. Our ultimate perfect state. Again, nothing to do with any purgatory.
        Do you believe that believers will be perfected the moment they die, though? But this is not Scriptural, the moment of perfecting is at Jesus' appearing.

        No. The rich man was in hades DESPITE receiving good things in life. He wants to warn his family about the same disobedience he engaged in, which resulted in his being where he was. Unbelief in Moses and the prophets. The parable makes it clear that he was there because he was unfaithful to the Torah. Again, there is no evidence supporting a purgatory for the saints.
        No, Abraham clearly states that the rich man was in hades because he received his good things in his life. Then there is the mention of belonging, where Abraham calls him son, and he calls Abraham father.

        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          But what in this verse hints that this "possible time in hell" would be purgatory?
          It would pretty clearly resemble that.

          Their being clean now doesn't guarantee an eternal state. Hebrews 6:4-5 describes of apostates "those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age". I don't know any way that present discipleship could be described more positively than that; in any other context, a pastor could write a five point sermon about the Christian life based on that description.
          "Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:11–12)

          Sounds like these are going to be kept, to persevere! And these are some of Jesus' friends, to whom he spoke his warning about hell. Some may apostasize, that is true, yet some will not, and the warning is given to them all.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            With which I agree, but you missed my point: Doesn't "friends" here include those who were clean (John 13:10)? Thus this warning included those bound for glory, with possible time in hell.
            No. Hell is for the damned. Hell was created for “the devil and his angels” (Matt 25:41). He was also clear that hell is an eternal punishment for those who do not obey Him (Matt 25:36). 2 Thess 1:8-9 says that in the end God “will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” 2 Pet 2:4 says “if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chain of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment”


            Scripture doesn't tell us what the keys to death and hell will be used for. But the keys to the kingdom of heaven are used for binding and loosing (Mt. 16:19).
            They are both a symbol of authority.


            No, this is not a warning about apostacy, since Jesus tells them not to fear.
            It most certainly is! Jesus telling them to not fear is about their physical well-being not affecting their position of favor in God's eyes.


            Well, my point was that being with the Lord may involve pain for some believers.
            Nah it won't. When we see Him next, either at His coming or at our death, we will see Him as He is and our redemption will be complete until the end when our bodies rise to be reunited with our spirit.


            Do you believe that believers will be perfected the moment they die, though?
            No. We will be washed whit as snow and our garments will be made white. But until our bodies rise and reunite with our spirits, we will not be completely perfect.

            But this is not Scriptural, the moment of perfecting is at Jesus' appearing.
            Never thought otherwise.

            No, Abraham clearly states that the rich man was in hades because he received his good things in his life.
            No he didn't. There was no direct statement about what the man had done to deserve torment, but it was made pretty clear that his disobedient relatives would be there next, not for having good things, but for not obeyng Moses and the Prophets. The fact that he had been given good things in life is not sinful, and thus no reason for punishment. That is stretching scripture WAAAAAY beyond its meaning.

            Then there is the mention of belonging, where Abraham calls him son, and he calls Abraham father.
            All Jews claimed Abraham as their father. John 8:39 says “Abraham is our father,” they replied. Abraham rightly called him "son" because he was a descendant of Abraham. The Lord Himself even called the wicked Pharisees Abraham's sons John 8:37 I know you are Abraham's descendants, but you are trying to kill Me because My word has no place within you.

            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              It would pretty clearly resemble that.


              "Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:11–12)

              Sounds like these are going to be kept, to persevere! And these are some of Jesus' friends, to whom he spoke his warning about hell. Some may apostasize, that is true, yet some will not, and the warning is given to them all.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              Maybe I'm missing something but I simply don't see how this affirmatively points to purgatory, because hell seems to fit the data equally well (especially as you've conceded that apostasy is possible). It sounds like you're saying that it's a possible interpretation without saying what definitively points in that direction. In the absence of more data, we would have to look elsewhere in Scripture for evidence of that doctrine.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                No. Hell is for the damned.
                But you are ignoring the point I'm making, that this warning of hell was spoken to Jesus' friends, some of whom would persevere and be saved.

                They are both a symbol of authority.
                But not only that! Keys are for binding and loosing, it appears.

                Nah it won't. When we see Him next, either at His coming or at our death, we will see Him as He is and our redemption will be complete until the end when our bodies rise to be reunited with our spirit.
                You are contradicting the verse I quoted, though, that there may be pain for some believers after death (see Rev. 6:10)

                No. We will be washed whit as snow and our garments will be made white.
                At the moment of death? I need references...

                But until our bodies rise and reunite with our spirits, we will not be completely perfect.
                Or free from sin?

                "So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him." (2 Co 5:9)

                So apparently we are not automatically pleasing to the Lord away from the body.

                No he didn't. There was no direct statement about what the man had done to deserve torment...
                There is pretty clearly a reason given, "Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish." (Luke 16:25) I don't know how this could be clearer.

                All Jews claimed Abraham as their father. John 8:39 says “Abraham is our father,” they replied. Abraham rightly called him "son" because he was a descendant of Abraham. The Lord Himself even called the wicked Pharisees Abraham's sons John 8:37 I know you are Abraham's descendants, but you are trying to kill Me because My word has no place within you.
                But I think Abraham calling him "son" is more than just descent.

                "... and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring," (Rom. 9:7)

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  But you are ignoring the point I'm making, that this warning of hell was spoken to Jesus' friends, some of whom would persevere and be saved.
                  No I am not ignoring anything. I've addressed it already. It refers to the real prospect of apostasy. Should they fear for their lives instead of their souls, they risk apostasy. It isn't rocket science.


                  But not only that! Keys are for binding and loosing, it appears.
                  That is the result of the authority (keys) given to the Apostles. It has nothing to do with post-mortem things.


                  You are contradicting the verse I quoted, though, that there may be pain for some believers after death (see Rev. 6:10)
                  That verse has nothing to do with purgatory. Nor with "pain" for believers. It has to do with justice for their wrongful death as martyrs.


                  At the moment of death? I need references...
                  Phil. 1:23–24. Paul indicates that, as soon as we die, our souls go immediately into the presence of Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:8 “We are confident (of eternal life), I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord”


                  Or free from sin?
                  Yeah. Romans 8:2 says For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. There is no need for further punishment for sin. Jesus paid it all. All to Him we owe.


                  "So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him." (2 Co 5:9)

                  So apparently we are not automatically pleasing to the Lord away from the body.
                  Sorry, but that is really stretching that verse well beyond its context. Paul is simply stating his desire to please God, whether here or in heaven. Not that he would or could fail in pleasing God, but Paul always has a subtext of his own unworthiness.


                  There is pretty clearly a reason given, "Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish." (Luke 16:25) I don't know how this could be clearer.
                  Sorry but no. Getting good things in life is not a sin. Nor is poverty an automatic ticket to paradise. That makes a complete mockery of the sacrifice of Jesus and the Gospel as a whole. NONE of us is good. NONE are worthy. NONE deserve anything except hell. HE alone saves. HE ALONE is worthy. We rely solely on the good HE is.


                  But I think Abraham calling him "son" is more than just descent.

                  "... and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring," (Rom. 9:7)
                  Again, you are wrong. This was before the New Covenant was sealed. The Old Covenant was with Abraham and his offspring. And they remained his offspring until the time where the Church changed blood inheritance to faith inheritance.

                  There simply is no scriptural support for post-mortem purgatory.

                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    Maybe I'm missing something but I simply don't see how this affirmatively points to purgatory, because hell seems to fit the data equally well (especially as you've conceded that apostasy is possible).
                    Yet the Lord says "do not fear" in the next breath, so I think he's speaking to true believers, to those who will persevere, in warning them of hell.

                    It sounds like you're saying that it's a possible interpretation without saying what definitively points in that direction. In the absence of more data, we would have to look elsewhere in Scripture for evidence of that doctrine.
                    Well, I do have more Biblical evidence:

                    REV 2:11 He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

                    "Who are the 'overcomers'? Certainly it is those who are fully loyal to Christ as his true disciples, those who are identified with him in his suffering and death (1John 5:4-5). Compare those who do not overcome in 21:8 with those referred to in the letters, e.g., the 'cowardly' (2:10, 13), the 'sexually immoral' (2:14, 20), the 'idolaters' (2:14, 20), and the 'liars' (2:2, 9, 20; 3:9)." (Expositor's Bible Commentary)

                    Are all Christians "fully loyal"? As far as I can tell, some are not. Are there any Christians who are cowardly, sexually immoral, idolaters, any who lie as a habit? Well, yes, I have seen such, people who I think are real Christians, but who have a sin problem that is habitual in one of these areas. Do some Christians die in this state? Yes, I think some do. But "without holiness no one will see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14). So if a person is not completely pure when they reach the moment of death, there may be the possibility of being purified further, being touched by "the second death" some, before they can see the Lord.

                    "And as for the one who conquers and keeps my works until the end." This promise-to-the-victor formula differs from the parallel formulas in Rev 2–3 in that the substantival participle "ho nikon" ("to nikonti" in 2:7, 17) is coordinated with an additional substantival participle, "ho taron", "who keeps," which serves to further delineate the specific meaning of "ho nikon". Though both substantival participles are masculine singular, they clearly imply that *all* Christians (whether men or women) who conquer and keep the works of Christ will receive the promised reward." (Word Commentary)

                    "To the man who perseveres to final victory Christ says that he will give to eat of the tree of life. After Adam's sin the way to the tree of life was cut off and guarded by cherubim. Now it is given by Christ to his triumphant follower. But it is not to be taken for granted. Only some have the right to it, and it may be taken away." (Tyndale Commentary)

                    "To him that overcometh, He says, that is, to him who overcometh and conquereth himself and all else, will I give to eat of the hidden manna, that is, an inward and hidden savour and celestial joy" (Richard Rolle) I think this sums it up pretty well. And the question is, when do believers overcome?

                    "The Spirit that indited the Scripture, did not think the great importance and absolute necessity of holy practice, in this respect, to be inconsistent with the freeness of grace; for it commonly teaches them both together; as in Revelation 21:6-7, God says, 'I will give unto him that is athirst, of the fountain of the water of life freely;' and then adds, in the very next words, 'he that overcometh shall inherit all things.' As though behaving well in the Christian race and warfare, were the condition of the promise." (Jonathan Edwards)

                    The promises for those who overcome are not automatic for all believers:
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      No I am not ignoring anything. I've addressed it already. It refers to the real prospect of apostasy. Should they fear for their lives instead of their souls, they risk apostasy. It isn't rocket science.
                      Yet I think Jesus implied that all but Judas would persevere (John 17:11-12)

                      That is the result of the authority (keys) given to the Apostles. It has nothing to do with post-mortem things.
                      But I think that authority was given to the church. And then there is this verse:

                      '“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: ‘The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens." (Rev. 3:7)

                      So keys are for opening and shutting, this should really not need stating.

                      That verse has nothing to do with purgatory. Nor with "pain" for believers. It has to do with justice for their wrongful death as martyrs.
                      Good grief, can you not see that this is overcoming believers in distress in glory? And if overcoming believers have distress, how much more might believers who do not overcome?

                      Phil. 1:23–24. Paul indicates that, as soon as we die, our souls go immediately into the presence of Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:8 “We are confident (of eternal life), I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord”
                      But that is not to say that being with the Lord will not involve some painful experience.

                      Yeah. Romans 8:2 says For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. There is no need for further punishment for sin. Jesus paid it all. All to Him we owe.
                      I'm not talking about punishment for sin, though, I'm talking about purification of character.

                      Sorry, but that is really stretching that verse well beyond its context. Paul is simply stating his desire to please God, whether here or in heaven. Not that he would or could fail in pleasing God, but Paul always has a subtext of his own unworthiness.
                      So it would seem that in heaven there is a possibility of being displeasing to God.

                      Sorry but no. Getting good things in life is not a sin.
                      But when there is a beggar at your gate, sick and going hungry? See James 5:5.

                      Nor is poverty an automatic ticket to paradise.
                      No, being a true son of Abraham is, though, as apparently both the rich man and Lazarus were.

                      This was before the New Covenant was sealed. The Old Covenant was with Abraham and his offspring. And they remained his offspring until the time where the Church changed blood inheritance to faith inheritance.
                      No, righteousness, right standing with God, has always been by faith, why, Abraham himself is the very example of being declared righteous by faith (Rom. 4:1-5, for instance)

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                      Comment

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