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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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Jesus VS today’s gospel of the kingdom

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  • Jesus VS today’s gospel of the kingdom

    “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come.” Matthew 24:14 (NCPB)
    When Jesus says “this gospel of the kingdom”, he means the one he preached and not the one the Pharisees preached.

    The big switcheroo….

    Unable to grasp Christ’s invisible kingdom, many assumed his kingdom must be the same as the Pharisee’s physical kingdom, the one they always heard preached. And must have assumed that was the kingdom he spoke of.

    Wrong.......

    The main difference between Jesus’ kingdom and the Pharisee’s kingdom is their make-up. Jesus taught the kingdom is spiritual. The Pharisees taught the kingdom is physical. Jesus preached a kingdom of faith. The Pharisees preached a kingdom of sight. Jesus said the kingdom was present, the Pharisees said it was future because they could not see it. If you put it into theological terms, Jesus preached Amillennialism (= no millennium) and the Pharisees preached a type of Pre-Millennialism (= a physical kingdom based on Judaism).

    But today, many side with the Pharisees and substitute Millennialism for the Amillennialism Jesus preached. Which makes millennialism a false gospel. The following are many proof texts that show Jesus taught an Amillennial kingdom only.

    Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:

    “And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

    “And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)
    “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)
    “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

    “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

    “Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

    “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

    “And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)
    “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

    “But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

    “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.” Luke 16:16 (KJV 1900)

    “because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

    “Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

    “He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)

    “When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.” (Mark 12:34) (HCSB)

    “for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17) (HCSB)

    “I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.” Revelation 1:9 (NASB95)

    “But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.” Acts 8:12 (KJV 1900)

    “That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.” 1 Thessalonians 2:12 (KJV 1900)

    “And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.” Acts 19:8 (KJV 1900)

    “And when thy days [David] be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)

    So when Jesus preached the gospel of the spiritual kingdom, the Pharisees rejected him because it wasn’t what they expected. According to Daniel, God set up his everlasting kingdom in the time of the Roman Empire. But since the Pharisees read the kingdom prophecies literally, they rejected Jesus. Not grasping that the kingdom prophecies use symbols to represent spiritual realities. For instance, Ezekiel’s temple symbolized Christ who is the third temple made without hands. This is the most common mistake people make today in prophecy. They assume the symbol will come to pass instead of what the symbol represents. Jesus by teaching a spiritual kingdom showed us that the kingdom prophecies used material symbols to represent the spiritual realities in the kingdom of God. Some more examples follow.

    Where the Pharisees expected Elijah’s return, according to Jesus, John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah instead.

    Where the Pharisees expected David’s descendant to reestablish and rule from his throne over the world in Jerusalem, scripture teaches that Jesus now sits on David’s throne in heavenly Jerusalem above.

    And so it remains today. Many look for the prophetic symbols to appear instead of what they represent. And read the kingdom prophecies as the Pharisees did. And look for a future physical kingdom that will never happen.



  • #2
    Millennialism isn't a "false gospel" it has nothing to do with the gospel. It, like premillenialism and amillenialism, are merely different eschatological views regarding the return of Jesus and the setting up of his Kingdom. All of the views are within orthodoxy.

    All three view Jesus' kingdom as spiritual right now but eventually will become a physical kingdom one day. They just differ on how and when he will return and set up that physical kingdom. Premills think he will return and set up a 1000 year kingdom, then Satan will be loosed and after that the permanent physical kingdom will be established forever. Amills think the 1000 years is spiritual/symbolic, but even they believe that Jesus will set up a permanent physical Kingdom on earth one day when New Jerusalem will come down to earth.

    Once again you seem to be trying to condemn those who don't believe exactly like you do, while claiming they have no free will to do otherwise.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Millennialism isn't a "false gospel" it has nothing to do with the gospel. It, like premillenialism and amillenialism, are merely different eschatological views regarding the return of Jesus and the setting up of his Kingdom. All of the views are within orthodoxy.

      All three view Jesus' kingdom as spiritual right now but eventually will become a physical kingdom one day. They just differ on how and when he will return and set up that physical kingdom. Premills think he will return and set up a 1000 year kingdom, then Satan will be loosed and after that the permanent physical kingdom will be established forever. Amills think the 1000 years is spiritual/symbolic, but even they believe that Jesus will set up a permanent physical Kingdom on earth one day when New Jerusalem will come down to earth.

      Once again you seem to be trying to condemn those who don't believe exactly like you do, while claiming they have no free will to do otherwise.
      Remember Skip Wilson's "the Devil made me do it"? Dave can blame God for everything.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

        Remember Skip Wilson's "the Devil made me do it"? Dave can blame God for everything.
        I think he should read the verses in the bible about having too much pride. He reminds me of the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

        Luke 18:9 Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else: 10 “Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not like other people—cheaters, sinners, adulterers. I’m certainly not like that tax collector! 12 I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’



        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post

          I think he should read the verses in the bible about having too much pride. He reminds me of the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

          Luke 18:9 Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else: 10 “Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not like other people—cheaters, sinners, adulterers. I’m certainly not like that tax collector! 12 I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’


          Pretty much every thread he starts reminds me of the Pharisees, and I said so early on. And it's his mission, apparently, to spread this to every Christian discussion board he can find.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #6
            For someone who hates the Pharisees so much, he likes to act like one. He doesn't realize Jesus had issues with how they acted not necessarily everything they believed. His "the Pharisees believed X, therefore X is WRONG" is like saying liking dogs is bad because Hitler liked dogs.
            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

            Comment


            • #7
              I think Dave doesn’t get the fact, from his own lips, that we all believe as we do because God is making us.


              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                I think Dave doesn’t get the fact, from his own lips, that we all believe as we do because God is making us.
                I really wish God hadn't made you say that.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                  I really wish God hadn't made you say that.


                  Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                    Pretty much every thread he starts reminds me of the Pharisees, and I said so early on. And it's his mission, apparently, to spread this to every Christian discussion board he can find.
                    Also reminds me of Darfius (who will no doubt appear since I mentioned his name) who is sinless and only posts to tell us how wrong we all are.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                      For someone who hates the Pharisees so much, he likes to act like one. He doesn't realize Jesus had issues with how they acted not necessarily everything they believed. His "the Pharisees believed X, therefore X is WRONG" is like saying liking dogs is bad because Hitler liked dogs.
                      Modern Pharisees never think they are Pharisees.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Millennialism isn't a "false gospel" it has nothing to do with the gospel. It, like premillenialism and amillenialism, are merely different eschatological views regarding the return of Jesus and the setting up of his Kingdom. All of the views are within orthodoxy.

                        All three view Jesus' kingdom as spiritual right now but eventually will become a physical kingdom one day. They just differ on how and when he will return and set up that physical kingdom. Premills think he will return and set up a 1000 year kingdom, then Satan will be loosed and after that the permanent physical kingdom will be established forever. Amills think the 1000 years is spiritual/symbolic, but even they believe that Jesus will set up a permanent physical Kingdom on earth one day when New Jerusalem will come down to earth.

                        Once again you seem to be trying to condemn those who don't believe exactly like you do, while claiming they have no free will to do otherwise.
                        The Pharisees created Premillennialism. Jesus refuted it as false doctrine in the gospels. You must reject the gospel of the Kingdom to accept it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Stop treating secondary issues like primary issues. The Pharisees liked to strain gnats just like you do. And they also liked using logical fallacies.

                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                            The Pharisees created Premillennialism. Jesus refuted it as false doctrine in the gospels. You must reject the gospel of the Kingdom to accept it.
                            What the heck are you talking about now? Where does it say the Pharisees created Premillenialism? And where does it say it is a false gospel?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                              What the heck are you talking about now? Where does it say the Pharisees created Premillenialism? And where does it say it is a false gospel?
                              The Millennium is a Pharisee Doctrine.

                              First, MILLENNIUM: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10840-millennium

                              By: Joseph Jacobs, A. Biram
                              Table of Contents
                              Messianic Period an Interregnum.
                              The reign of peace, lasting one thousand years, which will precede the Last Judgment and the future life. The concept has assumed especial importance in the Christian Church, where it is termed also “chiliasm,” designating the dominion of Jesus with the glorified and risen saints over the world for a thousand years. Chiliasm or the idea of the millennium is, nevertheless, older than the Christian Church; for the belief in a period of one thousand years at the end of time as a preliminary to the resurrection of the dead was held in Parseeism. This concept is expressed in Jewish literature in Enoch, xiii., xci. 12-17; in the apocalypse of the ten weeks, in Apoc. Baruch, xl. 3 (“And his dominion shall last forever, until the world doomed to destruction shall perish”); and in II Esdras vii. 28-29. Neither here nor in later Jewish literature is the duration of this Messianic reign fixed. It is clear, however, that the rule of the Messiah was considered as an interregnum, from the fact that in many passages, such as Pes. 68a, Ber. 34b, Sanh. 91b and 99a, Shab. 63a, 113b, and 141b, a distinction is made between and , although it must be noted that some regarded the Messianic rule as the period of the fulfilment of the prophecies, while others saw in it the time of the subjugation of the nations.
                              But in time, the church condemned Premillennialism as heresy. First, According to the Nicene Creed


                              ………………. and He shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end.
                              Sproul, R. C. (Ed.). (2015). The Reformation Study Bible: English Standard Version (2015 Edition) (p. 2389). Orlando, FL: Reformation Trust.
                              Also condemned as heresy by the Council of Ephesus in 431 in two ways.

                              “In addition to its condemnation of Nestorianism, the council also condemned
                              Pelagianism, [2] and rejected premillennialism (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Papias,
                              Tertullian, Origen, Lactantius) in favor of Amillennialism (Clement of
                              Alexandria, Chrysostom, Jerome and Augustine of Hippo): "Augustine's
                              explanation became Church doctrine when it was adopted as the definitive
                              explanation of the millennium by the Council of Ephesus in 431."[35]

                              Secondly, “Canon 7 condemned any departure from the creed established by the First Council of Nicaea (325)” This affirmed Jesus “shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.” Thereby denouncing premillennialism and the doctrines leading up to and including Dispensationalism of the 1800s.

                              Retrieved from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...ldid=921743450


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