Announcement

Collapse

Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Ten reasons why there is no Millennium.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Well Dave L having started this thread and not participated further, I take it that you have changed your mind and now agree that there is indeed going to be a literal millennial reign of the Lord Jesus Christ, with a rod of iron, from the earthly Jerusalem on the seat of David!

    Comment


    • #47
      Yeah, stop speculating, guys. "They will live and reign with Him a 1,000 years" could mean anything. I mean what the heck does "the whole world will worship the beast" mean? It's all so foggy. Let's just agree to give lip service to the Man who called Himself the Truth and said the truth alone could set us free while being careless about the truth. Ok, people I've never met--er, I mean brothers and sisters? Sorry, my false piety slipped a second there. Watch me do some holy poses to make up for it.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Darfius View Post
        "They will live and reign with Him a 1,000 years" could mean anything.
        Numbers in the Bible are very often symbolic.

        Originally posted by Darfius View Post
        Ok, people I've never met--er, I mean brothers and sisters? Sorry, my false piety slipped a second there. Watch me do some holy poses to make up for it.
        Good manners and courtesy are important in life. Especially for people who claim to be disciples of Jesus. "[Speak to] others as you would want to be spoken to." If you find yourself being hypocritical, repent and ask the Lord to change your heart and give you grace.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Darfius View Post
          Yeah, stop speculating, guys. "They will live and reign with Him a 1,000 years" could mean anything.
          Also, where are the thrones and those who are reigning? On the Earth? Or in heaven? Don't jump to answer too quickly―because almost everything else in chapters 19 and 20 is happening in heaven. And the believers reigning from the thrones are martyrs, so they've already died and gone to heaven.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by GKC_fan View Post

            Also, where are the thrones and those who are reigning? On the Earth? Or in heaven? Don't jump to answer too quickly―because almost everything else in chapters 19 and 20 is happening in heaven. And the believers reigning from the thrones are martyrs, so they've already died and gone to heaven.
            Wonderful, another Preterist voice posting here...of whatever flavor...doesn't matter. That's good enough to lure me away from constructing a set of Roman shades today, or framing a barrel-vaulted portico ceiling on top of a 10' ladder.

            The thrones in Revelation 20:4 with authority given to them to judge are not literal thrones. They were the "thrones" promised to the disciples to sit upon after Christ's resurrection (His regeneration) in Matthew 19:28. The disciples' delegated authority to judge matters from those "thrones" in the early church in Jerusalem under the New Covenant was well documented in the book of Acts. This was merely a reflective fulfillment of the former "thrones of judgment" in Jerusalem under the OT laws (Psalms 122:2-5) where the more difficult disputes between tribal members were supposed to be taken and settled.

            These "thrones" in Revelation 20:4 for the Apostles are not exactly the same thing as the concept of the saints living and reigning with Christ during the thousand years. The second Person of the Trinity has reigned in eternity past, and will reign continually into eternity future. The literal thousand-year time limitation was put on SATAN - not on Christ's reign, which is perpetual and has no time limitation. It's just that this continual reign has been manifested in various ways throughout the history of mankind on this earth. The righteous of this world during their lifetime have always "reigned in life" with Christ (Romans 5:17). That would be from the beginning onward.

            Scripture states that the literal thousand-year millennium of Satan's bound condition expired with the "First resurrection" (Revelation 20:5-7). That "First Resurrection" event was in AD 33 with Christ and the 144,000 Firstfruits, Matthew 27:52-53 saints being resurrected that day. Which means the literal thousand-year millennium period expired that day in AD 33. Which means it first started back in 968/967 BC with the foundation stone of Solomon's temple being laid down (with archeological proof for this date). This amounted to a literal thousand years from 968/967 BC until AD 33 of God authorizing a PHYSICAL temple structure system in Jerusalem. This was only intended to be a picture portraying the coming fulfillment of Christ the True Foundation Stone - the "chief cornerstone" - of the SPIRITUAL temple not made with hands under the established New Covenant.

            As for the "unparalleled" period of "great tribulation" mentioned in other posts above (which was between AD 66-70), Christ had already predicted in Matthew 12: 43-45 the reason this would be an unprecedented time of tribulation. That was because the seven-fold oppression of the entire demonic world would descend upon one single city to plague that "wicked generation" in its "last state". This was in contrast to that wicked generation's "first state" when it had demons cast out of the people during Christ's earthly ministry. No city either before or since that first century generation has ever experienced having every unclean spirit imprisoned within its walls, as Revelation 18:2 described. Once that period had expired, God had promised that every one of those unclean spirits would "pass out of the land" in Zechariah 13:2 after the siege of Jerusalem was over. There are other texts describing the time that God would destroy the demonic realm in its entirety which point to the AD 70 period. That means this particular kind of tribulation can never occur again in this world since that AD 70 year. It is a moot point to compare the actual body counts or level of atrocities from various wars and armies throughout history when comparing demonic oppression to human depredations. These are two different types of tribulation entirely.


            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
              ...The second Person of the Trinity has reigned in eternity past, and will reign continually into eternity future.

              The literal thousand-year time limitation was put on SATAN - not on Christ's reign, which is perpetual and has no time limitation. It's just that this continual reign has been manifested in various ways throughout the history of mankind on this earth. The righteous of this world during their lifetime have always "reigned in life" with Christ (Romans 5:17). That would be from the beginning onward....
              Thank you, 3 Resurrections, for those excellent reminders. They are a good illustration of the truth of Proverbs 18:17:
              In a lawsuit the first to speak seems right,
              until someone comes forward and cross-examines.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                Scripture Verse: Mark 8:38


                For whoever will be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man also will be ashamed of him, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

                © Copyright Original Source



                So as soon as that generation died, Jesus' warning here expired? It's ok to be ashamed of Him now? Or was your claim easily disproven? Keep up the dishonesty, you might fool someone before God holds you accountable for it.
                A specific warning about a specific time. So, you pull a single word from a single verse from a whole discourse, try to make it say something it was never intended to say, which is a false premise fallacy...and you call me dishonest...how laughable. Asking the question is it “ok to be ashamed of him now” is akin to asking "is it ok to sacrifice a bull as a sin offering?" The question is moot, because it no longer applies to us. We can't be ashamed of Christ in the way he's using it here. So yes, in this instance Jesus' warning expired.

                For those reading this thread, to understand this passage, we first have to look at the context and timing of when this event was going to occur. Jesus is proclaiming a JUDGEMENT on the Jewish leadership. First of all, from the text, it's plain that he is speaking to a very specific generation. He says, "...THIS adulterous and sinful generation..." That alone disqualifies the application of this passage to any generation beyond the one that Jesus was living in 2000 years ago, unless your premise is that Jesus was a liar. Jesus isn't accusing those in the crowd of sleeping with women other than their wives. He's referring to Israel being known as committing spiritual adultery by rejecting the Messiah / Groom that was standing right in front of them. Of course, Jesus does not specifically mention Jerusalem’s divorce and remarriage directly in this discourse, he does imply it by Him being “ashamed” of His THIS “adulterous generation” at His Second Coming. Therefore, Jesus in Matthew 16:27 and it's parallel, Mark 8:38 Jesus is describing the judgment of this “adulterous generation/wife” that will happen “soon”. And, when using the phrase “be ashamed of” he's speaking about the adulterous Old Covenant wife whom would be left without a wedding garment stripped naked and left ashamed (Rev. 17:6), while His New Covenant wife would be clothed in Christ’s righteousness as His New Jerusalem or “house from above” - unashamed and “further clothed” with costly gold, gems, etc…How else do you explain what he says in Mark 9:1

                Mark 9:1 - and he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”


                What is a "generation" to an eternal God? As I covered here, it is primarily a certain offspring, not a certain time period. Genesis talks about the "generations" of Adam, the men he produced. The men he generated. When Jesus speaks of "this generation", He is speaking of the people of God's chosen nation who should know better. That application even applies to so-called Christians of today's "generation".
                Please show a verse that uses genea and is translated as race or kindred. Genos is a different word. Jesus wasn't dumb, he would have used genos if he wanted to specify race or kindred.
                OBP pretty much dismantled your argument a few posts down.

                As Esther already pointed out and you ignored because you (and no other preterist) could not possibly address it, the 1st century most certainly was not an unparalleled time of disaster in human history, nor was it like "the days of Noah" when humanity would nearly be wiped out.
                I'm working on a response to that for her.
                Last edited by Littlejoe; 09-01-2022, 11:20 PM.
                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                Comment


                • #53
                  "To narrate their enormities in detail is impossible; but to put it briefly, no other city ever endured such miseries, nor since the world began has there been a generation more prolific in crime." (Josephus, War, (Niese 5:442; Whiston v.10.5). H. St. John Thackeray, M.A., trans., Josephus, with an English Translation In Nine Volumes. Vol. III (The Jewish War, Books IV-VII). (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1961.) 339.
                  When I Survey....

                  Comment

                  Related Threads

                  Collapse

                  Topics Statistics Last Post
                  Started by seanD, 03-26-2020, 12:05 PM
                  91 responses
                  5,544 views
                  1 like
                  Last Post seanD
                  by seanD
                   
                  Started by seanD, 02-05-2014, 03:15 PM
                  66 responses
                  9,960 views
                  0 likes
                  Last Post seanD
                  by seanD
                   
                  Working...
                  X