Announcement

Collapse

Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Ten reasons why there is no Millennium.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Esther View Post

    Thanks Darfius , I like your word, "unparalleled". How anyone can think the destruction of the temple in 70AD was the worst thing that has ever happened in the history of the world totally flaws me.

    Matthew 24:21:For [d]at that time there will be a great tribulation (pressure, distress, oppression), such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will [again].

    This is of course just one of the many many things that bewilder me about the doctrine of preterism.

    The second coming of Christ has already taken place? Is the preterist gospel along the lines of Jesus was born, died resurrected and has returned?

    Why was the biggest event that ever could take place not recorded?? The Lord Jesus Christ coming on the clouds of glory with his host of angels as King of Kings and Lord of Lords...
    Jude 1:14-15:14 It was of these people, moreover, that Enoch in the seventh [generation] from Adam prophesied when he said, Behold, the Lord comes with His myriads of holy ones (ten thousands of His saints)

    The Apostle's Creed. Do preterists believe in this creed? And so on.
    Even within the preterist camp, there are factions. The most logical version claims, as you said, that Jesus returned in 70 AD and resurrected the believers at that time. The inconsistent majority call these consistent minority "full preterists" or "hyperpreterists" to make it seem as if their inconsistency is respectable. "Partial preterism" is the version endorsed by most of the preterists here, I believe. They think Jesus had one "invisible coming" in 70 AD to install His kingdom and that He will return to resurrect believers in the future. The "day of judgment" was only for Jews and all the toys and candy is for Christians. Works out well for the so-called Christians. All of the bonuses with none of the responsibility the Jews had. That is, if it wasn't so clearly absurd and an insult to God, who will mete out both judgment and blessing with no respect of persons:

    Scripture Verse: Romans 2

    “There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, to the Jew first and also to the Greek [Gentile]; but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek [Gentile].”

    © Copyright Original Source

    Comment


    • #32
      This is such a concise and well written article from the Elizabethan Star which takes only a few minutes to read. I would be very interested to read any preterist's response to this short article? It is the best overview I have read on the subject and it would have saved me a lot of time I wasted on long-winded explanations. Here is a paragraph directly related to the OP's Ten reasons why there is no Millennium:

      "First, “preterism diminishes the glory of Jesus.” The promise of Psalm 2, Isaiah 9:6-7 and Revelation relate to a time of a 1000 years when Jesus will physically govern all nations of the world. Can you imagine God the Father reneging on His promise to His Son Jesus regarding the nations? This is what preterists ask us to do through their denials of a future physical kingdom with Jesus ruling over it, which is what God the father promised to the Son".

      For me, the worst thing about preterism is this paragraph:

      "Third, “preterism negates the Biblical hope of believers.” Peter said, “set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 1:13) By claiming Jesus already fulfilled the prophecies of the Bible, preterists shift the hope of believers to the church and this world. Many New Testament verses show God intended our future expectation to be on Jesus’ return for His Church, at which time we receive glorified bodies (Phil. 3; 1 Cor. 15), experience eternal victory over death (1 Cor. 15; 1 Thess. 1&4) and be caught up to be with the Lord Jesus forever".

      Full brief article:

      https://www.elizabethton.com/2020/02...some-churches/

      Last edited by Esther; 08-29-2022, 03:36 PM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Darfius View Post
        As Esther already pointed out and you ignored because you (and no other preterist) could not possibly address it, the 1st century most certainly was not an unparalleled time of disaster in human history, nor was it like "the days of Noah" when humanity would nearly be wiped out.
        To the Jews it was.
        Last edited by GKC_fan; 08-29-2022, 06:58 PM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by GKC_fan View Post

          To the Jews it was.
          So the Jews were right about the end of days but wrong about the whole Christ thing? Cool story, bro.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Darfius View Post

            So the Jews were right about the end of days but wrong about the whole Christ thing? Cool story, bro.
            So anyone who is mistaken about one thing is mistaken about everything? Paul: "We [all] know in part..."

            And I didn't say they were right about their ideas of the "end of days." I said that what happened was the end of their world. And it was.

            Comment


            • #36
              Here are some other very clear statements of Scripture, Darfius:

              Eph. 4:32
              Be kind and compassionate to one another

              1 Pet. 3:15
              Always be prepared to give an answer...but do this with gentleness and respect

              Rom. 12:10
              Honor one another above yourselves

              1 Pet. 2:17
              Show proper respect to everyone

              1 Pet. 5:5
              All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble

              Eph. 4:29-32
              Let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building up the one in need and bringing grace to those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God...

              Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, outcry and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and tenderhearted to one another...

              Jesus: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."

              Originally posted by Darfius View Post
              ...Keep up the dishonesty, you might fool someone before God holds you accountable for it.

              ...but as honest folks like Esther, sean and I have pointed out before,...

              ...is just dishonesty, not an honest attempt to assess the text.
              Darfius, I don't know why you feel the need, and think that you have the right, to so glibly judge and accuse (and slander) people of dishonesty / lying, at least one of whom you don't know at all. But you really don't have that right. You are violating multiple clear commands of Scripture. (And TWeb's rules of decorum.)

              Unrighteous anger and unrighteous judging, and contempt for others, are sins. They need to be taken before the Lord, repented of, and ask Him to heal the cause. And your brothers and sisters deserve an apology.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by GKC_fan View Post
                Here are some other very clear statements of Scripture, Darfius:

                Eph. 4:32
                Be kind and compassionate to one another

                1 Pet. 3:15
                Always be prepared to give an answer...but do this with gentleness and respect

                Rom. 12:10
                Honor one another above yourselves

                1 Pet. 2:17
                Show proper respect to everyone

                1 Pet. 5:5
                All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble

                Eph. 4:29-32
                Let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building up the one in need and bringing grace to those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God...

                Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, outcry and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and tenderhearted to one another...

                Jesus: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."
                Keep in mind that Jesus could also use some pretty harsh language when the situation called for it, and much more than that as well (as John 2:13-17 demonstrates).

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by GKC_fan View Post

                  So anyone who is mistaken about one thing is mistaken about everything? Paul: "We [all] know in part..."

                  And I didn't say they were right about their ideas of the "end of days." I said that what happened was the end of their world. And it was.
                  Show me the verse that says "from a certain point of view, it will be the end of days." Since you like to give unwanted counsel, here's some for you. Think before you speak.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by GKC_fan View Post
                    Here are some other very clear statements of Scripture, Darfius:

                    Eph. 4:32
                    Be kind and compassionate to one another

                    1 Pet. 3:15
                    Always be prepared to give an answer...but do this with gentleness and respect

                    Rom. 12:10
                    Honor one another above yourselves

                    1 Pet. 2:17
                    Show proper respect to everyone

                    1 Pet. 5:5
                    All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble

                    Eph. 4:29-32
                    Let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building up the one in need and bringing grace to those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God...

                    Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, outcry and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and tenderhearted to one another...

                    Jesus: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."



                    Darfius, I don't know why you feel the need, and think that you have the right, to so glibly judge and accuse (and slander) people of dishonesty / lying, at least one of whom you don't know at all. But you really don't have that right. You are violating multiple clear commands of Scripture. (And TWeb's rules of decorum.)

                    Unrighteous anger and unrighteous judging, and contempt for others, are sins. They need to be taken before the Lord, repented of, and ask Him to heal the cause. And your brothers and sisters deserve an apology.
                    Littlejoe said a false statement that was easily disproven. What is that other than a lie? It can't be an honest mistake, since again, it was "easily" disproven. Being careless with the truth is the same as lying.

                    I told you in the private message you sent to me. You're not my brother, nor is any liar. Only those who do the will of my Father in heaven.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Keep in mind that Jesus could also use some pretty harsh language when the situation called for it, and much more than that as well (as John 2:13-17 demonstrates).
                      Yes, but Darfius is calling people liars just because they disagree with him. That's very different.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                        Littlejoe said a false statement that was easily disproven. What is that other than a lie? It can't be an honest mistake, since again, it was "easily" disproven. Being careless with the truth is the same as lying.
                        TWeb disagrees with you.

                        "We consider a lie to be a poster knowingly and willfully making a statement they know to be untrue. If you call someone a liar you need to substantiate it. In order to substantiate an accusation of lying, it must be shown that the poster in question is stating something they know to be untrue.
                        Opinions or facts that are in dispute should never be referred to as lies."

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Esther View Post
                          "First, “preterism diminishes the glory of Jesus.” The promise of Psalm 2, Isaiah 9:6-7 and Revelation relate to a time of a 1000 years when Jesus will physically govern all nations of the world. Can you imagine God the Father reneging on His promise to His Son Jesus regarding the nations? This is what preterists ask us to do through their denials of a future physical kingdom with Jesus ruling over it, which is what God the father promised to the Son".

                          For me, the worst thing about preterism is this paragraph:

                          "Third, “preterism negates the Biblical hope of believers.” Peter said, “set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 1:13) By claiming Jesus already fulfilled the prophecies of the Bible, preterists shift the hope of believers to the church and this world. Many New Testament verses show God intended our future expectation to be on Jesus’ return for His Church, at which time we receive glorified bodies (Phil. 3; 1 Cor. 15), experience eternal victory over death (1 Cor. 15; 1 Thess. 1&4) and be caught up to be with the Lord Jesus forever".

                          Full brief article:

                          https://www.elizabethton.com/2020/02...some-churches/
                          Hi Esther,

                          Thanks for sharing this article.

                          The author's first three points are merely the author's opinion and interpretation.
                          • Preterism diminishes the glory of Jesus.
                          • Preterism exalts the Church rather than Jesus.
                          • Preterism negates the Biblical hope of believers.
                          Jesus and the Father might agree that preterism does this . . . or they might not. But we can't say either way definitely, can we?

                          We see this clearly by the author's question under the first point: "Can you imagine God the Father reneging on His promise to His Son Jesus regarding the nations?" No, of course not. But the author is presuming that the thousand-year Millennium is a literal event on the Earth and literally 1000 years long: as opposed to being partially or fully symbolic, for example, or spiritual rather than physical. But we humans don't know what the full and actual truth about the Millennium is; we are looking through a glass, dimly.

                          We can also see clearly the weakness of the author's first three points by making the question generic: "Can you imagine God allowing or doing [whatever it is that the author can't imagine God allowing or doing]?" But as we know very well from the Bible and our own experiences, God allows and does many, many things that many people couldn't imagine that He would.

                          The fourth point is a factual argument, not mere opinion, so it's much stronger.

                          But the author's concluding arguments are also weak:

                          1) “Don’t let anyone take your eyes off Jesus; He’s the prize and your only refuge in a troubled world."

                          This is an appeal to emotion, and it's equating a disagreement with the author about the Millennium with denying or ignoring Jesus completely. Which of course is nowhere near what preterists are saying. (Also Amillenialists and Panmillenialists.)

                          2) "[Jesus is] coming soon!”

                          This is also mere opinion, although it's stated as a fact. It's basically just saying, "The Preterists are wrong! How do I know? They just are; trust me!"

                          Thank you again for sharing, sister.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by GKC_fan View Post

                            Yes, but Darfius is calling people liars just because they disagree with him. That's very different.
                            And for some reason he cannot tell the difference between someone giving their opinion or something they believe to be right and some one knowingly making a false statement.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by GKC_fan View Post

                              Hi Esther,

                              Thanks for sharing this article.

                              The author's first three points are merely the author's opinion and interpretation.
                              • Preterism diminishes the glory of Jesus.
                              • Preterism exalts the Church rather than Jesus.
                              • Preterism negates the Biblical hope of believers.
                              Jesus and the Father might agree that preterism does this . . . or they might not. But we can't say either way definitely, can we?

                              We see this clearly by the author's question under the first point: "Can you imagine God the Father reneging on His promise to His Son Jesus regarding the nations?" No, of course not. But the author is presuming that the thousand-year Millennium is a literal event on the Earth and literally 1000 years long: as opposed to being partially or fully symbolic, for example, or spiritual rather than physical. But we humans don't know what the full and actual truth about the Millennium is; we are looking through a glass, dimly.

                              We can also see clearly the weakness of the author's first three points by making the question generic: "Can you imagine God allowing or doing [whatever it is that the author can't imagine God allowing or doing]?" But as we know very well from the Bible and our own experiences, God allows and does many, many things that many people couldn't imagine that He would.

                              The fourth point is a factual argument, not mere opinion, so it's much stronger.

                              But the author's concluding arguments are also weak:

                              1) “Don’t let anyone take your eyes off Jesus; He’s the prize and your only refuge in a troubled world."

                              This is an appeal to emotion, and it's equating a disagreement with the author about the Millennium with denying or ignoring Jesus completely. Which of course is nowhere near what preterists are saying. (Also Amillenialists and Panmillenialists.)

                              2) "[Jesus is] coming soon!”

                              This is also mere opinion, although it's stated as a fact. It's basically just saying, "The Preterists are wrong! How do I know? They just are; trust me!"

                              Thank you again for sharing, sister.
                              Thank you GKC_fan for reading the article and your reply.

                              I think I must just make peace with the fact that people who read the Bible mostly allegorically will always remain a mystery. I read the Bible mostly literally and mostly the NT (there is only so much time in a day...).

                              It is good to fellowship with believers who believe in the soon coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. There are very dear born again people who are preterists but it is tricky because we are not in harmony about this elemental but foundational doctrine and it does tend to separate.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Esther View Post

                                Thank you GKC_fan for reading the article and your reply.
                                You are very welcome, sister. And thank you again for posting it. It's always good to hear a new point of view; even if we don't end up fully agreeing we can learn things and hopefully be iron sharpening iron.

                                Originally posted by Esther View Post
                                I think I must just make peace with the fact that people who read the Bible mostly allegorically will always remain a mystery. I read the Bible mostly literally and mostly the NT (there is only so much time in a day...).
                                But thank the Lord that it's all true, and so much of it is literally true!

                                Originally posted by Esther View Post
                                It is good to fellowship with believers who believe in the soon coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. There are very dear born again people who are preterists but it is tricky because we are not in harmony about this elemental but foundational doctrine and it does tend to separate.
                                Yes, so it's so important to keep the main thing the main thing. While I would love for His final appearing to be soon, I just don't see it.

                                But whoever's right about that, we're all still family, and Jesus prayed that we would be one in love, and told us that loving God and each other is our most important task. The world will know that we're His disciples by our love, He said, not our correct doctrine. So that's what I try to focus on, and leave the speculation to others and the knowing and doing what only He can know and do to Him. :-)
                                Last edited by GKC_fan; 08-30-2022, 01:57 PM.

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X