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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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Ten reasons why there is no Millennium.

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  • Ten reasons why there is no Millennium.

    1. Scripture doesn’t mention one. Most think John describes one in Revelation 20, but this is only how they interpret it.
    2. Daniel said the Kingdom of God would arrive in the time of the ancient Roman Empire. But the Pharisees and like-minded Christians still wait after thousands of years for it to show.
    3. Instead, Jesus arrived during the time of the ancient Roman Empire preaching the arrival of the Kingdom of God which is spiritual and everlasting.
    4. The Pharisees and other premillennialists expect their Millennium to last only 1000 years.
    5. Jesus says in contrast the kingdom arrived with Him and is not of this world.
    6. Jesus said only the born again can see the kingdom of God.
    7. This suggests that many not born again seek the Pharisee’s physical millennial kingdom instead.
    8. If the Pharisees and Premillennialists Kingdom ever did come, it would far different from what they expected.
    9. Since flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God, only the spiritual bodies of the resurrected saints would be there.
    10. This means Satan would seduce many of the glorified resurrected saints to attack the rest of the glorified saints when he is loosed after 1000 years.
    Some points to consider. John says Satan is bound from deceiving the nations (gentiles) for 1000 years. So his binding corresponds to the gospel being preached to the whole world. It binds him wherever the truth becomes known. However, Satan also performs God’s plan in other areas.
    1,000 years is a symbol for completeness in the Old Testament. God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. Samson killed a thousand Philistines. Etc., etc.
    If John used 1000 years in the biblical sense to denote a total binding of Satan by the gospel? And the saint’s reigning over him by preaching it? Are we at liberty to discard it and import the Pharisee’s premillennialism in place of it?

    The Millennium is a Pharisee Doctrine.

    First, MILLENNIUM: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar...840-millennium
    By: Joseph Jacobs, A. Biram
    Table of Contents
    Messianic Period an Interregnum.
    The reign of peace, lasting one thousand years, which will precede the Last Judgment and the future life. The concept has assumed especial importance in the Christian Church, where it is termed also “chiliasm,” designating the dominion of Jesus with the glorified and risen saints over the world for a thousand years. Chiliasm or the idea of the millennium is, nevertheless, older than the Christian Church; for the belief in a period of one thousand years at the end of time as a preliminary to the resurrection of the dead was held in Parseeism. This concept is expressed in Jewish literature in Enoch, xiii., xci. 12-17; in the apocalypse of the ten weeks, in Apoc. Baruch, xl. 3 (“And his dominion shall last forever, until the world doomed to destruction shall perish”); and in II Esdras vii. 28-29. Neither here nor in later Jewish literature is the duration of this Messianic reign fixed. It is clear, however, that the rule of the Messiah was considered as an interregnum, from the fact that in many passages, such as Pes. 68a, Ber. 34b, Sanh. 91b and 99a, Shab. 63a, 113b, and 141b, a distinction is made between and , although it must be noted that some regarded the Messianic rule as the period of the fulfilment of the prophecies, while others saw in it the time of the subjugation of the nations.
    But in time, the church condemned Premillennialism as heresy. First, According to the Nicene Creed

    ………………. and He shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end.

    Sproul, R. C. (Ed.). (2015). The Reformation Study Bible: English Standard Version (2015 Edition) (p. 2389). Orlando, FL: Reformation Trust.
    Also condemned as heresy by the Council of Ephesus in 431 in two ways.

    “In addition to its condemnation of Nestorianism, the council also condemned Pelagianism, [2] and rejected premillennialism (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Papias, Tertullian, Origen, Lactantius) in favor of Amillennialism (Clement of Alexandria, Chrysostom, Jerome, and Augustine of Hippo): "Augustine's explanation became Church doctrine when it was adopted as the definitive explanation of the millennium by the Council of Ephesus in 431."[35]

    Secondly, “Canon 7 condemned any departure from the creed established by the First Council of Nicaea (325)” This affirmed Jesus “shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.” Thereby denouncing premillennialism and the doctrines leading up to and including Dispensationalism of the 1800s.

    Retrieved from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...ldid=921743450

  • #2
    The literal thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 was composed of the years of a stationary, PHYSICAL temple worship system in the physical city of Jerusalem. It lasted from the time Solomon's temple foundation stone was laid down in 968 / 967 BC until AD 33. At that AD 33 year, Christ's actions on our behalf made Him the "chief cornerstone" of the true spiritual temple not made with hands. We believers as "living stones" are being built upon Christ, that spiritual foundation stone. The millennium's literal thousand years was only supposed to foreshadow the True Temple, which was spiritual and mobile, NOT physical and stationary.

    John lets us know that this thousand-year period had already expired by the time he was writing Revelation. We know this because Satan was to be loosed from his chain for just a "short time" when the thousand years had "expired" and "finished". This "loosing" of Satan from his chain for that specific "short time" had already happened, according to Revelation 12:12. In that verse, John gave the believers a warning that Satan had already come down to them in great wrath, knowing that he had only a "short time" left to operate in this world. This is proof positive that the millennium had already "expired" and was "finished" even before John put pen to parchment.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
      The literal thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 was composed of the years of a stationary, PHYSICAL temple worship system in the physical city of Jerusalem. It lasted from the time Solomon's temple foundation stone was laid down in 968 / 967 BC until AD 33. At that AD 33 year, Christ's actions on our behalf made Him the "chief cornerstone" of the true spiritual temple not made with hands. We believers as "living stones" are being built upon Christ, that spiritual foundation stone. The millennium's literal thousand years was only supposed to foreshadow the True Temple, which was spiritual and mobile, NOT physical and stationary.
      Whence that date? It is one that I haven't seen mentioned before.
      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
      "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

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      • #4
        I just stay ready for whenever Jesus calls me home.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #5
          Wouldn't it be a real hoot if Jesus called us home, and a whole bunch of "theologians" missed it because they were too busy arguing about eschatology?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Tabibito,

            This date of 968 / 967 BC is confirmed by a couple of sources: both of which refer to the Tyrian kings list and their regnal dates. Why is this list of the kings of Tyre important? Because Hiram King of Tyre helped Solomon begin the building of the temple with workmen and supplies. It is the FOUNDATION STONE of Solomon's temple being laid down that is important. Scripture goes to the trouble of giving us the very day for the laying down of foundation stones for both Solomon and Zerubbabel's temple, because they both foreshadowed Christ becoming the True Foundation Stone in AD 33 of the spiritual Temple not made with hands.

            Josephus refers to this Tyrian kings list in his "Against Apion". The ECF, Theophilus, wrote about the date for the beginning of Solomon's temple being built in "Theophilus to Autolycus", Chapter 22 - "Antiquity of the Temple", by citing Menander the Ephesian who compiled the regnal dates for the Tyrian kings.

            In between this date of Solomon's temple foundation stone being laid down and AD 33 when Christ fulfilled the role of becoming the "chief cornerstone", there are exactly 1,000 literal years of this physical temple worship system. When Christ launched the New Covenant in His blood at His ascension on His resurrection day, He ended that millennium period in the AD 33 year. This agrees with John in Revelation 12:12, where he announced that Satan's period of being loosed on earth for a "short time" had already begun at that time. Since we are told in Revelation 20:3 and 7 that Satan was loosed for a "short time" AFTER the millennium had "finished" and "expired", this proves that the millennium was already over by the time John was writing Revelation. The millennium is NOT in our future.


            For Cowpoke,

            I won't miss the day of Christ's return, and neither will you. But it is far distant from now, and you and I will have long since turned to dust by 3033. Fortunately, God is perfectly capable of resurrecting us both out of the dust of the grave, so we needn't worry.
            Last edited by 3 Resurrections; 01-12-2022, 09:04 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Wouldn't it be a real hoot if Jesus called us home, and a whole bunch of "theologians" missed it because they were too busy arguing about eschatology?
              I think it's a given that is going to happen. Given what will then happen to the "theologians", I'm not sure it's funny.
              "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

              "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

              Comment


              • #8
                We will all see Jesus soon enough. Either when he comes to us or we go to him. The rest I leave up to him. He can do whatever he wants and set up his kingdom however he wants to. None of it has anything to do with salvation. You can be saved without knowing a thing about the future. Dave is a pharisee.

                Also, Dave, this is the same topic as your other thread https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...of-the-kingdom - I have reported that they should be merged.

                Please stop creating multiple threads on the same topics, and also please stop starting so many new threads, You currently have nearly 20 of them started in the last 10 days. Let the old ones run their course before starting others. Flooding is not only against our rules but bad ettiquette for a forum. And just in case you are wondering "who is Sparko to be ordering me around?" - I am one of the four owners of Theologyweb (you can tell by my name in red). Red is owner, Green is department head, Blue is area moderator/professor. So this is your official notice.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                  I think it's a given that is going to happen. Given what will then happen to the "theologians", I'm not sure it's funny.
                  Yeah, "hoot" has broad application in Texas --- could mean hysterically funny, or really really odd coincidence, or.... "ain't that somethin' else!"
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                    Yeah, "hoot" has broad application in Texas --- could mean hysterically funny, or really really odd coincidence, or.... "ain't that somethin' else!"
                    Thanks for explaining.
                    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                      Thanks for explaining.
                      Yeah, I should be careful when using that with persons unfamiliar with how we use it --- it's kinda comical in a way, because if somebody mentions a name of another person who happens to be a "colorful character", and you don't know how that person feels about the third party, you can just smile and say, "yeah, he's a HOOT!"

                      (could mean he's a really enjoyable person to be around, or he's a stinker nobody likes)
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        I just stay ready for whenever Jesus calls me home.
                        Personally, I think the reason we were instructed to "know when he's at the door" and why Jesus put so much emphasis on specific signs is because it's going to get really really bad, and why he instructed to watch for those signs. That way, when it does get really really bad, we'll be less likely to fall from the faith than if we weren't expecting it to get really really bad. And this, IMO, is especially true for us modern Christians living in a cushy developed western world where it's been really good for so long and we've known nothing really bad.
                        "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

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