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Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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The falling away

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  • Obsidian

    Calling it "not at hand" makes it sound like it will be more than just 15-18 years in the future.


    All I can find is that Vespasian healed two people (at one time).

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  • KingsGambit
    I'm a little confused about how the NIV translation "already come" would be all that helpful to the preterist position as Thessalonians was written well before 70 AD (probably in the early 50s).

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  • seanD
    Not that I agree with the preterist view here, nor that I believe these accounts to be true, but I remember reading literature describing Vespasian as a miracle worker and describing some of the things he did, but I can't remember which ancient author it was from (maybe Josephus?). Whether that isolated written legend constitutes "all power and signs and lying wonders" is of course debatable.

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  • Obsidian
    started a topic The falling away

    The falling away

    2 Thessalonians 2
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [NIV: "already come"]
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition[.]

    It seems to me like it is extremely difficult to view this passage as referring to A.D. 70 (regardless of whether you accept the NIV translation, which does make a preterist view easier). He specifically states that the day shall not come until there is a "falling away." The epistles clearly show that the churches were being misled by false doctrine and sin even while the apostles were around. However, this level of chaos apparently did not constitute the "falling away," because Paul states that the falling away had not happened.

    Anyone who has read the "church fathers" basically 100-400s, however, and compared them with the Bible, could easily see how the later heresies might qualify as a major falling away.

    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things.
    6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    I've always felt that calling Titus the man of sin was a bit hokey. But this passage clearly would preclude identifying the Jewish priests as the man of sin, because the Jewish priests were around when this epistle was written. And Jesus and everyone else had already identified them as being sinful, so there was no further revelation required to identify them as sons of perdition.

    Further, it is totally unclear to me who would be "taken out of the way" under the preterist view.

    Finally, if this verse does not refer to A.D. 70, then that means the "temple" either refers to the church (as in historicism) or to a rebuilt temple (as in dispensationalism). I would lean toward the church, given that elsewhere Paul explicitly refers to the church as the temple of God.

    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    I don't think Titus or Vespasian created any substantial number of signs and lying wonders. In addition, it is unclear to me how they were even judged in any major way.

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