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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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Are We Approaching The End Times?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post

    Ah! Ok...but, Jesus was talking specifically to the Disciples in private, in answer to their questions. Why do you think Jesus was addressing us and not them?
    I understand that you hold the preterist view. Matthew 24:6-8 and everything described in the OD is only really significant to those in Jerusalem prior to 70 AD, so I guess you can say it didn't matter how that information was relayed to the rest of the world. The futurist believes the OD is global-centric (though I myself don't deny that the OD had at least some significance to the Christians prior to the war). Therefore, the only thing that distinguishes the events Jesus describes on a global level is how that information is relayed to rest of the world -- our communication technology.
    "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

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    • #62
      Originally posted by seanD View Post

      I understand that you hold the preterist view. Matthew 24:6-8 and everything described in the OD is only really significant to those in Jerusalem prior to 70 AD, so I guess you can say it didn't matter how that information was relayed to the rest of the world. The futurist believes the OD is global-centric (though I myself don't deny that the OD had at least some significance to the Christians prior to the war). Therefore, the only thing that distinguishes the events Jesus describes on a global level is how that information is relayed to rest of the world -- our communication technology.
      Sure, you know that I'm an Orthodox Preterist (to be clear to those who don't know), but I really want to know why futurist take the passage globally instead of whom it was addressed to. When I took some of my training in Bible studies, it was stressed that proper exegesis started with "what did the passage mean to the original recipients" (original hearers/readers), and the collolary of "it can never mean to you what it could NOT have meant to the original recipients".
      "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

      "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post

        Sure, you know that I'm an Orthodox Preterist (to be clear to those who don't know), but I really want to know why futurist take the passage globally instead of whom it was addressed to. When I took some of my training in Bible studies, it was stressed that proper exegesis started with "what did the passage mean to the original recipients" (original hearers/readers), and the collolary of "it can never mean to you what it could NOT have meant to the original recipients".
        Well, there's a lot of reasons why I don't believe the OD is just addressed to the disciples, which I won't get into lest the thread is sidetracked. But that's kind of a weird approach to biblical exegesis and seems to imply it was only relevant to the disciples. Where do you draw the line there. How do you know everything in the bible wasn't only relevant to the folks of the first century?
        "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

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        • #64
          Originally posted by seanD View Post

          Well, there's a lot of reasons why I don't believe the OD is just addressed to the disciples, which I won't get into lest the thread is sidetracked. But that's kind of a weird approach to biblical exegesis and seems to imply it was only relevant to the disciples. Where do you draw the line there. How do you know everything in the bible wasn't only relevant to the folks of the first century?
          LittleJoe's comment is perfectly correct, and in no way means that the statements were relevant only to people of the first century. If, for example, a first century reader understood "the sun was darkened" to mean the same that we mean when we say "the sky was darkened," interpreting that statement to mean something happened to the sun would wrest the scripture. More than a few scholars fail to take first century understandings of the language and its conventions into account, which results in less than acceptable teachings on a broad range of issues - and conflicting doctrines.
          sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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          • #65
            Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            LittleJoe's comment is perfectly correct, and in no way means that the statements were relevant only to people of the first century. If, for example, a first century reader understood "the sun was darkened" to mean the same that we mean when we say "the sky was darkened," interpreting that statement to mean something happened to the sun would wrest the scripture. More than a few scholars fail to take first century understandings of the language and its conventions into account, which results in less than acceptable teachings on a broad range of issues - and conflicting doctrines.
            That gets into a different subject. Literal vs. figurative. I don't think that's what LJ was addressing. But we know things like "the sky was darkened" can be both figurative and literal. Sometimes it might even be both at different times or perceived differently at different times. "The sky turning dark" at Jesus' crucifixion could have easily been interpreted figuratively by a Hebrew as a sad day of gloom during the death of Messiah prior had it been predicted in scripture prior.
            "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

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            • #66
              Originally posted by seanD View Post

              Well, there's a lot of reasons why I don't believe the OD is just addressed to the disciples, which I won't get into lest the thread is sidetracked. But that's kind of a weird approach to biblical exegesis and seems to imply it was only relevant to the disciples. Where do you draw the line there. How do you know everything in the bible wasn't only relevant to the folks of the first century?
              Well, since we are in a thread about "are we approaching the end times" I'm not sure why you reasons would be considered a side-track but...Ok...

              It's not weird at all. It's actually the way Bible students are trained to read and exegete scripture. Since the Bible canon was closed in the what...end of the 1st century(?) then we know the authors/speakers had the original hearers and readers in mind, not 21st century Americans when they spoke or wrote. So, while we can apply the Truth and Godly/Biblical principles to our modern lives. I did a quick Google search and this article explains it very well: https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-apply-today.html

              This is the way I learned as well as most other trained Bible students I know (Pastors, Missionaries, Evangelists, Chaplains etc.)

              I think it's weird that you can read someone else's mail and assume it's written to you.
              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post

                Well, since we are in a thread about "are we approaching the end times" I'm not sure why you reasons would be considered a side-track but...Ok...

                It's not weird at all. It's actually the way Bible students are trained to read and exegete scripture. Since the Bible canon was closed in the what...end of the 1st century(?) then we know the authors/speakers had the original hearers and readers in mind, not 21st century Americans when they spoke or wrote. So, while we can apply the Truth and Godly/Biblical principles to our modern lives. I did a quick Google search and this article explains it very well: https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-apply-today.html

                This is the way I learned as well as most other trained Bible students I know (Pastors, Missionaries, Evangelists, Chaplains etc.)

                I think it's weird that you can read someone else's mail and assume it's written to you.
                I think it will get sidetracked because there's no way you and I will agree on things such as Matthew 24:29-31. There's no way I can possibly accept that passage as pertaining to the 70 AD war and not Jesus' return. Neither you or I will convince the other, so I don't see any point in discussing those subjects.

                Obviously the writers of the first century weren't addressing modern Christians 2,000 years later. I get that. But to say that the OD only applies to the disciples in the first century and thus has no relevance to us today is setting a precedent you can't escape in how you interpret the rest of the bible if you want to stay consistent.
                "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

                Comment


                • #68
                  Hey, seanD and Littlejoe, your conversation is interesting but is taking the thread off topic. Kindly return to the topic. Thanks.
                  "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                  "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Sheer logic says we're getting closer.

                    There a time Christ is going to return. He hasn't yet. Time is marching on. We're on the time conveyer belt.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                      Hey, seanD and Littlejoe, your conversation is interesting but is taking the thread off topic. Kindly return to the topic. Thanks.
                      I apologize if you think we are off topic, you may or may not be aware of Orthodox Preterism. So, to be clear, I feel I'm on topic because I'm pointing out that what you cited in your OP specifically Matt 24 from the Preterist point of view all of that pretty much happened in 70 AD. That was my point all along. Again, I apologize if that wasn't clear.
                      Last edited by Littlejoe; 10-19-2021, 07:59 PM.
                      "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                      "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        I have a hard head - I think I'll just crash on through.
                        You have two stories right?

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          You have two stories right?
                          But I only tell one at a time.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                            But I only tell one at a time.
                            Might be more interesting if you combined them

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              Might be more interesting if you combined them
                              As I get older, they all seem to run together.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post

                                I apologize if you think we are off topic, you may or may not be aware of Orthodox Preterism. So, to be clear, I feel I'm on topic because I'm pointing out that what you cited in your OP specifically Matt 24 from the Preterist point of view all of that pretty much happened in 70 AD. That was my point all along. Again, I apologize if that wasn't clear.
                                Thanks for the apology.
                                "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                                "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                                Comment

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