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What will their [Israel] acceptance be but life from the dead? [Romans 11:15]

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  • What will their [Israel] acceptance be but life from the dead? [Romans 11:15]

    A lot of "Christians" don't like to talk about eschatology, relegating it to a "side issue" and proclaiming how they "always try to be ready for Jesus". Hogwash. The "day of the Lord" takes nearly center stage in the Bible, standing at the right hand of the Lord Himself, Jesus Christ. From the prophecy of the serpent's defeat given in the garden to Abraham's unconditional land grant to his descendants to Moses' prophecy that God would "make Israel jealous by the goyim (Gentiles)" to God's promise to King David that one of his progeny would build the temple and establish a physical kingdom of Israel that would endure forever, Israel's role in endtime events has always been pivotal, for reasons which I will strive to make clear in this post.

    Scripture Verse: Genesis 3

    15 And I will put enmity
    between you and the woman,
    and between your seed and hers;
    he will crush your head,
    and you will strike his heel.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    The "seed" represents not only the Messiah Jesus Christ, but also the people from whom He came:

    Scripture Verse: Romans 9

    I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

    © Copyright Original Source



    This is readily apparent, since the serpent's "seed" can not only be one individual (though the Antichrist represents his "son" as Christ represents God's Son) and is also a group of people.

    Scripture Verse: John 8

    42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    So from the beginning of human history, God predicted that His people (via "the woman") would wage perpetual war (enmity) with the people of the serpent, culminating in a defeat of the serpent himself by the champion of God's seed, the Messiah Jesus Christ.

    The first casualty of this war was Abel at the hands of his own brother Cain, who "belonged to the evil one" [was his seed] (1 John 3:12). Eventually the devil conscripted other fallen angels to add their own "seed" to the human race in a vain attempt to "poison the well" and prevent the coming of the seed of promise (Genesis 6) and the war reached such a fever pitch that God Himself had to intervene and wash away everyone but Noah and his family.

    After the Flood, squandering the second chance they'd been given, humanity doubled down on its rebellion and openly disobeyed God's explicit command to "fill the earth", choosing instead to pool their collective energies and resources to build a ritualistic base of operations (called a "tower") that would open a portal to God's domain (reach unto heaven) to carry the war directly to His doorstep. Circumstances again required God's direct intervention ("lest those days be shortened, no flesh would survive, but for the sake of the elect...") and He confused the languages of the rebels to stop their "progress" in its tracks ("lest nothing they determine to do be impossible for them"), mercifully delaying the inevitable final (apocalyptic) confrontation between God and the devil (via their surrogates the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent) "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled".

    Of vital importance to understanding eschatology and therefore everything else is to understand that in the wake of the Tower of Babel incident literal battle lines were drawn:

    Scripture Verse: Deuteronomy 32

    7 Remember the days of old;
    consider the generations long past.
    Ask your father and he will tell you,
    your elders, and they will explain to you.
    8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
    when he divided all mankind
    ,
    he set up boundaries for the peoples
    according to the number of the sons of God
    .
    9 For the Lord’s portion is his people,
    Jacob his allotted inheritance.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Genesis 10

    25 Two sons were born to Eber:

    One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided; his brother was named Joktan.

    © Copyright Original Source



    So after Babel "the nations" were divided up "according to the number of the 'sons of God'", a phrase which in the Old Testament always refers to angels. These angels chosen to rule over various nations formed a "council" with God, but because they were corrupt, God promised to deal with them and reclaim the whole world as "His inheritance" (intentionally using "inheritance" language in common with the partitioning language in Deuteronomy 32):

    Scripture Verse: Psalm 82


    1 God presides in the great assembly;
    he renders judgment among the “gods”:


    2 “How long will you defend the unjust
    and show partiality to the wicked?
    3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
    uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
    4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
    deliver them from the hand of the wicked.


    5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
    They walk about in darkness;
    all the foundations of the earth are shaken.


    6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
    you are all sons of the Most High.’
    7 But you will die like mere mortals;
    you will fall like every other ruler.”


    8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
    for all the nations are your inheritance.

    © Copyright Original Source



    In Daniel we are given a "behind the scenes" snapshot of this perpetual war between the fallen angel "princes" (who rule over "principalities" [Ephesians 6:12]) and the holy angels who serve God:

    Scripture Verse: Daniel 10

    12 Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”

    ...

    20 So he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; 21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

    © Copyright Original Source



    As it clearly states in Deuteronomy 32:9, when God partitioned out the nations, He chose Israel (Jacob) as "His portion". And Israel began with Abraham:

    Scripture Verse: Genesis 12

    The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.

    2 “I will make you into a great nation,
    and I will bless you;
    I will make your name great,
    and you will be a blessing.
    3 I will bless those who bless you,
    and whoever curses you I will curse;
    and all peoples on earth
    will be blessed through you."



    4 So Abram went, as the Lord had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Harran. 5 He took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, all the possessions they had accumulated and the people they had acquired in Harran, and they set out for the land of Canaan, and they arrived there.

    6 Abram traveled through the land as far as the site of the great tree of Moreh at Shechem. At that time the Canaanites were in the land. 7 The Lord appeared to Abram and said, “To your seed I will give this land.” So he built an altar there to the Lord, who had appeared to him.

    © Copyright Original Source



    By referring to Abraham's "seed", God is intentionally casting Abraham as the descendant of "the woman" who was to carry on the promise of "her seed". And God explicitly ties the promised seed in with "this land" (Canaan which became Israel), that is, "His portion".

    Scripture Verse: Genesis 15

    4 Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your seed be.”

    ...

    17 When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants [seed] I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Genesis 17

    3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants [seed] after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants [seed] after you; and I will be their God.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    "Land of Canaan" is too specific to mean some ephemeral "promised land" and we can all understand "everlasting possession". And of course it makes sense for God's "people" to be tied to a specific parcel of land, just as "Persians" live in Persia and "Greeks" in Greece.

    It also makes sense that since the fallen angelic "princes" (and ultimately their leader, the devil) wage war against God's people using "the nations" as chess pieces, so to speak, that God would wield "His portion" of Israel as a chess piece against the forces of darkness:

    Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 51


    19 He who is the Portion of Jacob is not like these,
    for he is the Maker of all things,
    including the people of his inheritance
    the Lord Almighty is his name.


    20 “You are my war club,
    my weapon for battle—
    with you I shatter nations,
    with you I destroy kingdoms,
    21 with you I shatter horse and rider,
    with you I shatter chariot and driver,
    22 with you I shatter man and woman,
    with you I shatter old man and youth,
    with you I shatter young man and young woman,
    23 with you I shatter shepherd and flock,
    with you I shatter farmer and oxen,
    with you I shatter governors and officials.



    24 “Before your eyes I will repay Babylon and all who live in Babylonia for all the wrong they have done in Zion,” declares the Lord.

    © Copyright Original Source



    With the usage of the same "Portion" and "inheritance" language of Deuteronomy 32, God is making it obvious that Jacob (Israel, His portion) is His "war club" and "weapon for battle" by which He will "shatter nations", ultimately including "Babylon" itself.

    Scripture Verse: Zechariah 9

    13 I will bend Judah as I bend my bow
    and fill it with Ephraim.
    I will rouse your sons, Zion,
    against your sons, Greece,
    and make you like a warrior’s sword.

    © Copyright Original Source



    And just as the Messiah Jesus Christ is called the "head" of His body (language which harkens back to crushing the serpent's "head" and the Antichrist receiving a "head" wound), Israel was meant to be the "head of nations":

    Scripture Verse: Deuteronomy 28

    9 The Lord will establish you as his holy people [seed], as he promised you on oath, if you keep the commands of the Lord your God and walk in obedience to him. 10 Then all the peoples on earth will see that you are called by the name of the Lord, and they will fear you. 11 The Lord will grant you abundant prosperity—in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your ground—in the land he swore to your ancestors to give you.

    12 The Lord will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. 13 The Lord will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the Lord your God that I give you this day and carefully follow them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom. 14 Do not turn aside from any of the commands I give you today, to the right or to the left, following other gods and serving them.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Just as the devil has a "head of nations":

    Scripture Verse: Daniel 2

    31 “Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

    ...

    36 “This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold. [Babylon]

    © Copyright Original Source



    In the interest of keeping this post of manageable proportions, I will speak about God provoking the nation of Israel to jealousy and the reestablishment of the nation of Israel in a future post, Lord willing.

  • #2
    So, you don't think that Israel broke the "if then statement" of Deut. 28 and voided the promise...or is that part 2?
    Last edited by Littlejoe; 09-21-2021, 05:01 PM.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
      Do you think that Israel broke the "if then statement" of Deut. 28 and voided the promise...or is that part 2?
      The error in your thinking becomes clear when we clarify what "the promise" means. While the promise of blessings or curses to Israel was conditional and depended on their obedience, the land grant for Israel was unconditional and was granted on the basis of their descent from Abraham or as Paul phrases it in Romans, "on account of the patriarchs":

      Scripture Verse: Romans 11

      28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts [like unconditional land grants] and his call [call of Abraham] are irrevocable.

      © Copyright Original Source



      Scripture Verse: Genesis 12

      1 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you. [call]

      ...

      7 The Lord appeared to Abram and said, “To your seed I will give this land.” [gift] So he built an altar there to the Lord, who had appeared to him.

      © Copyright Original Source



      Scripture Verse: Genesis 17

      3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

      © Copyright Original Source



      Unconditional land grant as an "everlasting possession".

      As for the conditional aspects of the covenant...:

      Scripture Verse: Deuteronomy 28

      If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. 2 All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God:

      ...

      9 The Lord will establish you as his holy people, as he promised you on oath, if you keep the commands of the Lord your God and walk in obedience to him. 10 Then all the peoples on earth will see that you are called by the name of the Lord, and they will fear you. 11 The Lord will grant you abundant prosperity—in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your ground—in the land he swore to your ancestors to give you [unconditional aspect]

      © Copyright Original Source



      Fulfillment of the conditional aspects of the covenant would bring blessings, while disobedience (or the "breaking") of the covenant would bring curses:

      Scripture Verse: Deuteronomy 28

      15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

      ...

      64 Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods—gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your ancestors have known. 65 Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the Lord will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. 66 You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life. 67 In the morning you will say, “If only it were evening!” and in the evening, “If only it were morning!”—because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see. 68 The Lord will send you back in ships to Egypt on a journey I said you should never make again. There you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.

      © Copyright Original Source



      Including a "scattering" from the land of Israel. But because the Lord is faithful even when we are disobedient, there was a clause in the covenant that obedience could bring restoration for Israel:

      Scripture Verse: Deuteronomy 30

      When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 7 The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. 8 You will again obey the Lord and follow all his commands I am giving you today. 9 Then the Lord your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors, 10 if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

      © Copyright Original Source



      Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 30

      3 The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel and Judah and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,’ says the Lord.”

      © Copyright Original Source



      Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 31

      7 This is what the Lord says:

      “Sing with joy for Jacob;
      shout for the foremost of the nations [head].
      Make your praises heard, and say,
      ‘Lord, save your people,
      the remnant of Israel.’
      8 See, I will bring them from the land of the north
      and gather them from the ends of the earth.

      ...

      35 This is what the Lord says,

      he who appoints the sun
      to shine by day,
      who decrees the moon and stars
      to shine by night,
      who stirs up the sea
      so that its waves roar—
      the Lord Almighty is his name:
      36 Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”
      declares the Lord,
      will Israel ever cease
      being a nation before me
      .”



      37 This is what the Lord says:

      Only if the heavens above can be measured
      and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
      will I reject all the descendants of Israel
      because of all they have done
      ,”
      declares the Lord.

      © Copyright Original Source



      Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 33

      19 The word of the Lord came to Jeremiah: 20 “This is what the Lord says: ‘If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night no longer come at their appointed time, 21 then my covenant with David my servant—and my covenant with the Levites who are priests ministering before me—can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne. 22 I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars in the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore.’”

      23 The word of the Lord came to Jeremiah: 24 “Have you not noticed that these people are saying, ‘The Lord has rejected the two kingdoms he chose’? So they despise my people and no longer regard them as a nation. 25 This is what the Lord says: ‘If I have not made my covenant with day and night and established the laws of heaven and earth, 26then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and have compassion on them.’”

      © Copyright Original Source



      Scripture Verse: Joel 3

      “In those days and at that time,
      when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
      2 I will gather all nations
      and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat.
      There I will put them on trial
      for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel,
      because they scattered my people among the nations
      and divided up my land.
      3 They cast lots for my people
      and traded boys for prostitutes;
      they sold girls for wine to drink.

      © Copyright Original Source



      The Lord Jesus predicted this endtime restoration when He pronounced judgment over those of Israel who rejected Him:

      Scripture Verse: Matthew 23

      37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

      © Copyright Original Source



      which is an allusion to:

      Scripture Verse: Psalm 118

      26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
      From the house of the Lord we bless you.
      27 The Lord is God,
      and he has made his light shine on us.
      With boughs in hand, join in the festal procession
      up to the horns of the altar.

      © Copyright Original Source



      and "festal procession" is itself an allusion to:

      Scripture Verse: Psalm 68


      24 Your procession, God, has come into view,
      the procession of my God and King into the sanctuary.
      25 In front are the singers, after them the musicians;
      with them are the young women playing the timbrels.
      26 Praise God in the great congregation;
      praise the Lord in the assembly of Israel.
      27 There is the little tribe of Benjamin, leading them,
      there the great throng of Judah’s princes,
      and there the princes of Zebulun and of Naphtali.


      28 Summon your power, God;
      show us your strength, our God, as you have done before.
      29 Because of your temple at Jerusalem
      kings will bring you gifts.

      © Copyright Original Source



      As opposed to Israel's "house" being "left desolate", which referred both to the temple and their standing as a nation, in the last days both the nation of Israel and the "house" of the Lord will be restored. And kings will bring Him gifts:

      Scripture Verse: Isaiah 60


      “Arise, shine, for your light has come,
      and the glory of the Lord rises upon you.
      2 See, darkness covers the earth
      and thick darkness is over the peoples,
      but the Lord rises upon you
      and his glory appears over you.
      3 Nations will come to your light,
      and kings to the brightness of your dawn.


      4 “Lift up your eyes and look about you:
      All assemble and come to you;
      your sons come from afar,
      and your daughters are carried on the hip.
      5 Then you will look and be radiant,
      your heart will throb and swell with joy;
      the wealth on the seas will be brought to you,
      to you the riches of the nations will come.
      6 Herds of camels will cover your land,
      young camels of Midian and Ephah.
      And all from Sheba will come,
      bearing gold and incense
      and proclaiming the praise of the Lord.
      7 All Kedar’s flocks will be gathered to you,
      the rams of Nebaioth will serve you;
      they will be accepted as offerings on my altar,
      and I will adorn my glorious temple.



      8 “Who are these that fly along like clouds,
      like doves to their nests?
      9 Surely the islands look to me;
      in the lead are the ships of Tarshish,
      bringing your children from afar,
      with their silver and gold,
      to the honor of the Lord your God,
      the Holy One of Israel,
      for he has endowed you with splendor.


      10 “Foreigners will rebuild your walls,
      and their kings will serve you.
      Though in anger I struck you,
      in favor I will show you compassion.
      11 Your gates will always stand open,
      they will never be shut, day or night,
      so that people may bring you the wealth of the nations—
      their kings led in triumphal procession.
      12 For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish;
      it will be utterly ruined.


      13 “The glory of Lebanon will come to you,
      the juniper, the fir and the cypress together,
      to adorn my sanctuary;
      and I will glorify the place for my feet.

      14 The children of your oppressors will come bowing before you;
      all who despise you will bow down at your feet
      and will call you the City of the Lord,
      Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

      © Copyright Original Source



      Scripture Verse: Isaiah 2

      2 In the last days

      the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
      as the highest of the mountains;
      it will be exalted above the hills,
      and all nations will stream to it.

      © Copyright Original Source








      Comment


      • #4
        Granted, God's covenant with Abraham was unconditional. However, You arbitrarily decide that Deut. 28 has conditional and unconditional statements in the same paragraph for no apparent reason. Then, when God's fulfills his "if/then" statement by scattering them later, the recall has specific provisions for recall back to the land. You seriously think that Israel has obeyed the command in in Deut 30:2?
        Scripture Verse:

        Deut. 30:2 "and when you and your children return to the Lord you God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today"

        © Copyright Original Source

        I don't honestly think they've fulfilled that command...do you?

        However, later both Moses
        Scripture Verse:

        Deut. 31:16–17 16 And the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers. Then this people will rise and whore after the foreign gods among them in the land that they are entering, and they will forsake me and break my covenant that I have made with them. 17 Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured. And many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’

        © Copyright Original Source

        and
        Scripture Verse:

        Joshua 23:16 16 if you transgress the covenant of the Lord your God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them. Then the anger of the Lord will be kindled against you, and you shall perish quickly from off the good land that he has given to you.”

        © Copyright Original Source

        speak of God expelling Israel from the land if they sinned against God. Now, how could this apparent contradiction be reconciled with the almost totally secular Israel of today? I would submit it is a Spiritual Fulfillment in the Church. Couldn't this promise, instead of being fulfilled in a "literal Israel", be fulfilled in a spiritual Israel, otherwise known as "the church"? We see Paul in
        Scripture Verse:

        Gal. 6:15-16 15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

        © Copyright Original Source

        which calls believers the “Israel of God” and the spiritual “seed” of Abraham
        Scripture Verse:

        Gal. 3:28-29 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[g] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

        © Copyright Original Source

        . We can also see in Romans 11 which says that Israel was “broken off” because of their rejection of their Messiah (v. 17). So, while literal Israel sinned and broke the covenant, God will still keep the Abrahamic covenant, only with NT believers who are in Christ
        Scripture Verse:

        Eph. 1:3-12 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[d] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[e] to the praise of his glory.

        © Copyright Original Source

        .

        The Temple has been restored.
        Scripture Verse:

        1 Cor. 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

        © Copyright Original Source

        Last edited by Littlejoe; 09-21-2021, 07:44 PM.
        "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

        "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

        Comment


        • #5
          That is "...life OUT OF the dead" in the YLT. Meaning some dead are left behind and not included.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
            That is "...life OUT OF the dead" in the YLT. Meaning some dead are left behind and not included.
            Given the content of the entire passage, with verse 23-24 included, I have to question that interpretation.

            Romans 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              Given the content of the entire passage, with verse 23-24 included, I have to question that interpretation.

              Romans 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
              But vs 23 is another if/then statement. I don't see justification anywhere that implies all will forsake their unbelief.
              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post

                But vs 23 is another if/then statement. I don't see justification anywhere that implies all will forsake their unbelief.
                So your claim then, is that the passage under review here in no way contradicts the general message of the Bible as a whole?
                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  So your claim then, is that the passage under review here in no way contradicts the general message of the Bible as a whole?
                  you'll have to explain your point better, sorry.
                  "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                  "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post

                    you'll have to explain your point better, sorry.
                    Reviewing 3 Resurrection's statement again now that I'm awake - I misinterpreted it. I don't question the claim after all.
                    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                      Granted, God's covenant with Abraham was unconditional. However, You arbitrarily decide that Deut. 28 has conditional and unconditional statements in the same paragraph for no apparent reason. Then, when God's fulfills his "if/then" statement by scattering them later, the recall has specific provisions for recall back to the land. You seriously think that Israel has obeyed the command in in Deut 30:2?
                      Scripture Verse:

                      Deut. 30:2 "and when you and your children return to the Lord you God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today"

                      © Copyright Original Source

                      I don't honestly think they've fulfilled that command...do you?
                      Nothing is arbitrary about what I've said. You admitted that God's covenant with Abraham was unconditional. That covenant included his "seed". And it included the physical land of Canaan.

                      Deuteronomy 30 also speaks of AFTER both the blessings and curses (scattered from the land) have occurred, detailing a route back to possession of the land of the covenant. It calls it "restoring their fortunes", a phrase repeated throughout Scripture as a callback predicting the regathering of the people to the land.

                      Israel has not yet fulfilled the command, but they were not predicted to do so until ALL of the tribes are reunited in the land after a staggered regathering:

                      Scripture Verse: Ezekiel 37

                      The hand of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”

                      I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”

                      4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”

                      7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

                      9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

                      11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      First the tribes of Israel are brought back to the land and "THEN" they will "know that I am the Lord". The order is made abundantly clear.

                      And the regathering and the time of the resurrection not only clearly occur at the same time period, but they are used as symbols for one another. And this aligns with what Daniel is told by Gabriel:

                      Scripture Verse: Daniel 12

                      13 “As for you [Daniel], go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      The "end of days" and the resurrection are clearly equated, and Daniel is told he will rise to receive his "allotted inheritance", intentionally echoing the land partition language of Deuteronomy 32 and therefore clearly referring to the land of Israel.

                      Hence the title of this thread. Paul, following the clear theme existing through Scripture, equates the end of days with a regathering of Israel which will culminate in the resurrection. Both physical.

                      As for the "staggered" nature of the regathering, just as the northern kingdom of Israel (containing 10 of the 12 tribes) and the southern kingdom of Judah (containing the other 2) went into exile at different times and into different locations (the northern tribes were so widely scattered that they have been considered "lost"), so their regathering into the land of Israel will be at different times and from different locations:

                      Scripture Verse: Ezekiel 37

                      15 The word of the Lord came to me: 16 “Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.’ 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.

                      18 “When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ 19 say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ 20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

                      24 “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. [thus meriting the "restoring of their fortunes" AFTER God does it] 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Regathering, reuniting of the 12 tribes and a rebuilding of the temple, which is all clearly portrayed in Revelation and clearly required when Paul says the Antichrist will "sit in the temple and proclaim himself God". See how the Bible makes sense when we read and integrate all of it and not just the bits we like?

                      "the land I gave my servant Jacob" is a physical place and cannot be interpreted otherwise. It says the Israelites will dwell their "forever", as will the physical temple of God which He calls His "dwelling place".

                      The staggered nature of the regathering is made quite explicit here:

                      Scripture Verse: Zechariah 12

                      A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.

                      The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’

                      6 “On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

                      7 The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

                      10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      The tribes of Judah (known as "the Jews") will be brought back to the land of Israel first, followed by the tribes of Ephraim (many of whom are Christians who have lost the knowledge of their physical descent from Abraham). The Jews are the "fathers" (the tribes who retained knowledge of their genetic descent [fathers]) and the Ephraimites are the "children" (the tribes who forgot their heritage and need to be instructed in it like children) whose hearts Elijah will turn to one another.

                      I have heard it objected that because genealogical records are lost the tribes could never recover their tribal identities, but in fact the same situation occurred during the return from the Babylonian exile--which was a foreshadowing of the "second" and greater "exodus" back to the land in the end days--and a solution was found:

                      Scripture Verse: Ezra 2

                      62 These searched for their family records, but they could not find them and so were excluded from the priesthood as unclean. 63 The governor ordered them not to eat any of the most sacred food until there was a priest ministering with the Urim and Thummim.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Obviously the Urim and Thummim would be used to determine the ancestry of the priest hopefuls to establish their right to partake of the most sacred food.

                      Now to finish with Zechariah 12, it is also obvious that "the one they have pierced" is Jesus Christ, whom the Jews will come to a saving knowledge to in the end days (you will not see me again until you say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord) and this is also alluded to using the very same "mourning" language by the Lord Jesus:

                      Scripture Verse: Matthew 24

                      30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      And the "plain of Megiddo" is also mentioned, which is clearly an allusion to Armageddon of Revelation.

                      However, later both Moses
                      Scripture Verse:

                      Deut. 31:16–17 16 And the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers. Then this people will rise and whore after the foreign gods among them in the land that they are entering, and they will forsake me and break my covenant that I have made with them. 17 Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured. And many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’

                      © Copyright Original Source

                      and
                      Scripture Verse:

                      Joshua 23:16 16 if you transgress the covenant of the Lord your God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them. Then the anger of the Lord will be kindled against you, and you shall perish quickly from off the good land that he has given to you.”

                      © Copyright Original Source

                      speak of God expelling Israel from the land if they sinned against God. Now, how could this apparent contradiction be reconciled with the almost totally secular Israel of today?
                      A staggered regathering wherein the Ephraimite/Christian "children" will return to help the Jewish "fathers" understand the spiritual nature of the law and the Jewish "fathers" will help the "children" understand the physical nature of the truth (faith without DEEDS is dead) so that the Father will possess worshippers who worship Him in spirit and in truth, for these are the worshippers He seeks.

                      I would submit it is a Spiritual Fulfillment in the Church. Couldn't this promise, instead of being fulfilled in a "literal Israel", be fulfilled in a spiritual Israel, otherwise known as "the church"? We see Paul in
                      Scripture Verse:

                      Gal. 6:15-16 15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

                      © Copyright Original Source

                      which calls believers the “Israel of God” and the spiritual “seed” of Abraham
                      Scripture Verse:

                      Gal. 3:28-29 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[g] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

                      © Copyright Original Source

                      .
                      Your submission is rejected by God's word, which never states a "spiritual" body could inherit the physical land of Canaan, which God promised as an everlasting possession to Abraham and his physical seed. The physical land of Israel is also called God's "portion" and "weapon" and its survival and thriving despite "the nations gathered against it" in the last days is offered as proof that the Lord is God.

                      Paul and the other apostles had to walk a fine line between rejecting salvation solely through works of the law and rejecting salvation solely through declarations of faith (lip service) with no corresponding deeds (works of the law). Those who belong to Christ are indeed Abraham's seed "according to the promise", but not according to the flesh and it is to his seed according to the flesh that the physical land of Israel is promised as an everlasting possession. Of course, though circumcision is of no use to an adult desiring to join the physical nation of Israel, a child born to them and circumcised on the 8th day could be reckoned among the tribes:

                      Scripture Verse: Ezekiel 47

                      22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23 In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign Lord.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      We can also see in Romans 11 which says that Israel was “broken off” because of their rejection of their Messiah (v. 17).
                      We also see that they can be (and will be) grafted in. And that the Gentiles who grow "conceited" can be "cut off".

                      The Jews stumbled over the stumbling block of thinking the Law meant more than it did. Christians stumble over the stumbling block of thinking the Law means less than it does. Just as the Jews were cut off, so too will the "Christians" be who think they can worship God with their lips while their hearts are far from Him (as evidenced by their lack of deeds).

                      So, while literal Israel sinned and broke the covenant, God will still keep the Abrahamic covenant, only with NT believers who are in Christ
                      Scripture Verse:

                      Eph. 1:3-12 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[d] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[e] to the praise of his glory.

                      © Copyright Original Source

                      .
                      The Abrahamic covenant can only be kept by his physical seed in the physical land of Canaan. Notice that Paul distinguishes between "spiritual blessings in the heavenly places" and later "things on earth" which are "united in him". Christians have every right to spiritual blessings in heavenly places, but unless they descend from Abraham and/or enter into the physical covenant, they have no right to the land of Canaan/Israel.

                      This is why the apostles use "odd" language when speaking to "the church". They knew the plan of God and the "lost" state of the tribes:

                      Scripture Verse: James 1

                      James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,

                      To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Scripture Verse: 1 Peter 1

                      Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

                      To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      The Temple has been restored.
                      Scripture Verse:

                      1 Cor. 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

                      © Copyright Original Source

                      Can you not read? That verse says our body is a temple of God's Spirit. Here is another:

                      Scripture Verse: Ephesians 2

                      19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Yes, the Spirit dwells within us. But Jesus Christ is no mere spirit. Though He is God, He is also a man of flesh and bone and that man cannot literally dwell within us. He requires a physical dwelling place befitting His status as our God and our King. That dwelling place will be the physical temple.

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