Announcement

Collapse

Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Naming the 8 "Kings" on the Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Naming the 8 "Kings" on the Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17

    Their names are given in the order of their coming into office...

    Ananus ben Seth (AD 6-15)
    Eleazar ben Ananus (AD 16-17)
    Joseph Caiaphas (AD 18-36)
    Jonathan ben Ananus (AD 36-37)
    Theophilus ben Ananus (AD 37-41)
    Matthias ben Ananus (AD 43)
    Ananus ben Ananus (AD 63)
    Mattathias ben Theophilus (AD 65-66)

    You guessed it...these are all the high priesthood members of the family of the original, evil patriarch Annas (Ananus ben Seth), who conspired to put Christ to death, and whose family persecuted the early church. Annas and his family held a virtual monopoly on the high priesthood during the first century, spanning the years from AD 6 until AD 66.

    Most preterists whose views I am familiar with have attempted to name the emperors of Rome as the "kings" on the Scarlet Beast, simply because they think that the Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast and the Revelation 13 Sea Beast are the same. They're not. That's because Revelation 13 and 17 give the identity of no less than THREE beasts, with enough details supplied that show a clear distinction between each of these three beasts. The Revelation 13 Sea Beast actually IS connected with ancient Rome, but is not the same as the Scarlet Beast under discussion in Revelation 17.

    The Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast was found in the WILDERNESS (Rev. 17:3), which was always connected with the geographical features of the JUDEAN landscape - not ROME. The wilderness background also features heavily in the history of the nation of Israel and their Exodus wanderings in the wilderness.

    The "kings" found on this Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast are not kings or potentates in the usual sense we associate with the term. These are "kings of THE EARTH" (tes ges - Rev. 17 18), or HIGH PRIESTS OF THE LAND OF ISRAEL, whom the great city Jerusalem was reigning over at the time John was writing Revelation. Christ referred to these "kings of the earth" in Matthew 17:25 as being the high priests who were exempt from paying the yearly Temple Tax along with their sons who were "free" from that obligation to pay for the Temple's operations.

    In keeping with Daniel's ancient concept of a "Beast" representing a kingdom of sorts, we can expect that this Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast is likewise a kingdom of sorts. I believe it to represent the revived independent kingdom nation of Israel, which, (according to Rev. 17:8 &11) had a FLUCTUATING PATTERN OF EXISTENCE over time. This is totally unlike the Rev. 13 Sea Beast with its CONTINUOUS, 666-year-old biographical record of leopard, bear, and lion features (i.e., the GENTILE kingdoms of Greece, Medo-Persian, and Chaldean empires respectively). This is the very reason why the disciples asked Christ in Acts 1:6, "Lord, wilt thou at this time RESTORE AGAIN the kingdom to Israel?" That kingdom of an independent Israel (the Scarlet Beast) had been lost at that time, and they were eager to see it restored, with Israel liberated from its then-present Roman domination .

    With scripture's definition of the Scarlet Beast's "kings of the earth" being the high priests of the land of Israel, the history of Annas and his sons, son-in-law, and grandson fits like a glove when compared to the enigmatic language about them in Revelation 17.


    Speaking of the Scarlet Beast, Revelation 17:8 says...

    "The beast that thou sawest WAS,..."
    (The independent kingdom nation of Israel once WAS in existence when the Maccabees' victories had established Israel as a free nation around 142 BC.)

    "...and IS NOT;..."
    (That independent kingdom nation of Israel was consequently lost when Pompey had put Israel under tribute to the Roman Republic in 63 BC. Which loss of that kingdom the disciples freely admitted to Christ in Acts 1:6.)

    "...and is ABOUT TO ARISE out of the bottomless pit,..."
    (As John was writing, the independent kingdom nation of Israel was soon to be revived to existence once more in AD 66 when the Zealots' rebellion would cast off the yoke of Roman control over their nation. This definitely dates the writing of Revelation to AT LEAST a pre-AD 66 date.)

    "...and go into destruction..."
    (This IMMINENT revival of the independent kingdom nation of Israel, which was re-instated by the Zealot uprising in AD 66, was also doomed to an IMMINENT destruction soon afterward. It would only last from AD 66 until AD 70.)

    "...And they that dwell on the earth..."
    (Those living in the land of Israel - tes ges)

    "...shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and is to come."
    (All those living in Israel who longed for a physical kingdom of Israel to come into power and save them - not a spiritual kingdom - would be amazed to see the re-emergence of Israel's independence. This freedom it once had under the Maccabees, then lost to Pompey's Roman Republic, and once more regained in AD 66 when the Zealot-led revolt in Israel had broken them free from the world-dominating power of Rome.)


    Revelation 17:10-11 continues with the description of the actions of the 7 and 8th "kings" on that Scarlet Beast.

    "And there are 7 kings: five are fallen..."
    (Five of the high priests of the house of Annas would have died before John was writing Revelation - Annas, Eleazar, Caiaphas, Jonathan, and Matthias)

    "...and ONE IS..."
    (One high priest who had held office was still living, which would be Theophilus, to whom the books of Luke and Acts were addressed.)

    "...and the other IS NOT YET COME;..." (That 7th high priest "king" had not yet come into the office of high priest yet before John was writing Revelation.)

    "...and WHEN HE COMETH..."
    (When Ananus son of Annas would be appointed as high priest in AD 63, soon after John was writing Revelation somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60, just before the Laodicean earthquake)

    "...he must CONTINUE A SHORT SPACE..."
    (because that 7th high priest "king" Ananus son of Annas was deposed after serving only a very brief 3 months. His offense against Roman authority who had appointed him was in overstepping the bounds of his office's authority by executing James the Just, Christ's half brother.)

    "And the beast that WAS,..."
    (The independent kingdom nation of Israel that once was brought to existence under the Maccabees' military victories)

    "...and IS NOT,..."
    (It "IS NOT" in existence as John was writing, since Pompey subjugated that kingdom of Israel by putting it under tribute to the Roman Republic in 63 BC.)

    "...even he is AN EIGHTH,..."
    (The Scarlet Beast kingdom of an independent Israel had a double identity as also being the 8th member of the House of Annas who would serve as high priest. That is because Matthias ben Theophilus, grandson of Annas, was the appointed high priest leader in Jerusalem from AD 65-66, and who became the titular head of that Scarlet Beast, at the same time when the Zealots' uprising in late AD 66 had revived the existence of the Scarlet Beast of an independent kingdom of Israel once more.)

    "...and is OF THE SEVEN,..."
    (since Matthias ben Theophilus descended as a grandson of Annas from that family of those 7 former high priests)

    "...and goeth into destruction."
    (This destruction was shared by the 8th member of the House of Annas, as well as the Scarlet Beast itself. Matthias ben Theophilus and the entire system of appointed high priests were overthrown by the Zealots when they eradicated them by casting lots to get their own puppet high priest in place who would cooperate with their plans - i.e., Phannias ben Samuel, as Wars 4.3.6-8 describes in Josephus. We know the Scarlet Beast itself shared this destruction, because the independent kingdom nation of Israel didn't last beyond AD 70.)


    The destruction of these high priest "kings of the earth" with the entire high priesthood (as well as that independent kingdom nation of Israel) was prophesied long before in Isaiah 24:18-23. In that passage, Isaiah predicted that "The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and IT SHALL FALL, AND NOT RISE AGAIN. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be found wanting."

    In Bible lingo, to be "found wanting" is to be GONE. These high priests "kings of the earth" were gathered together in Jerusalem in the AD 66-70 era, and by the time of Jerusalem's siege at the end when the city fell, they had died and that priesthood system was gone for all time, never to rise again.
















  • #2
    Ezekiel chapter 40 onwards speaks of a physical temple where a specifically Zadokite priesthood will officiate and in chapter 47, with no indication that the temple under discussion has suddenly become "spiritual" (meaning we can define it however we wish rather than as God details in His word), it says this:

    Scripture Verse: Ezekiel 47

    1 The man brought me back to the entrance to the temple, and I saw water coming out from under the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was coming down from under the south side of the temple, south of the altar. 2 He then brought me out through the north gate and led me around the outside to the outer gate facing east, and the water was trickling from the south side.

    3 As the man went eastward with a measuring line in his hand, he measured off a thousand cubits and then led me through water that was ankle-deep. 4 He measured off another thousand cubits and led me through water that was knee-deep. He measured off another thousand and led me through water that was up to the waist. 5 He measured off another thousand, but now it was a river that I could not cross, because the water had risen and was deep enough to swim in—a river that no one could cross. 6 He asked me, “Son of man, do you see this?”

    Then he led me back to the bank of the river. 7 When I arrived there, I saw a great number of trees on each side of the river. 8 He said to me, “This water flows toward the eastern region and goes down into the Arabah, where it enters the Dead Sea. When it empties into the sea, the salty water there becomes fresh. 9 Swarms of living creatures will live wherever the river flows. There will be large numbers of fish, because this water flows there and makes the salt water fresh; so where the river flows everything will live. 10 Fishermen will stand along the shore; from En Gedi to En Eglaim there will be places for spreading nets. The fish will be of many kinds—like the fish of the Mediterranean Sea. 11 But the swamps and marshes will not become fresh; they will be left for salt. 12 Fruit trees of all kinds will grow on both banks of the river. Their leaves will not wither, nor will their fruit fail. Every month they will bear fruit, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will serve for food and their leaves for healing.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    No physical temple has as yet fulfilled this crystal clear prophecy. But it will. Which is why the Antichrist will seek to defile it in a vain attempt to stop God's plan.

    Scripture Verse: Daniel 9

    27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: 2 Thessalonians 2

    4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

    © Copyright Original Source



    In neither of these instances does "temple" mean "spiritual pie in the sky meaning whatever anyone says it means". It means a physical place. Repent and listen to God rather than to the ravings of your sin damaged ego.

    Comment


    • #3
      Good evening, my ascerbic brother Darfius,

      What gave you the idea that I am "spiritualizing" the temple of Ezekiel? Of course it was a physical temple that was to be built according to that plan as given to Ezekiel. And it WAS built from start to finish under the hands of Zerubbabel, as we have proof in Zechariah 5:9 and Ezra 6:14. "And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, AND FINISHED IT, ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT OF THE GOD OF ISRAEL, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia. And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king." " The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also FINISH IT;..."

      That Second Temple was the same one that Herod completed his fabulous renovations on in Christ's days. THAT same renovated Second temple had abominable armies surround it that desolated it from AD 66-70. THAT same renovated Second temple was the one in which the single Antichrist pretender (Menahem) presented himself in the year AD 66 as the "King of the Jews" - a title that only Christ deserved to have.

      There is no way a Zadok priesthood could arise in the future to fulfill Ezekiel's required Zadok family lineage for the high priesthood role once more. Don't you remember Ezra 2:62, when some of the children of Israel could not find their genealogy in the register? They could not prove a continual line of descent, so they were put out of the priesthood "as polluted". There is no continual genealogical register that has been maintained for the family of Zadok since the genealogical records of the tribes were all burned up in the AD 66-70 era temple fires. As God intended. Even if God desired it (which He doesn't), anyone attempting to re-establish a Zadok-line priesthood today (in competition with Christ's superior high priesthood after the order of Melchizedek) would not be able to prove a continual line of descent, and would thus be "polluted" and barred from serving in the priesthood. But we know that God has no intention of allowing the renewal of a defunct priesthood system once again. That would be regresssion - not progress of the kingdom of God.

      Back in the post-exilic return era, Joshua son of Josedech in Zechariah 3 DID have God's required continual genealogical line back to Zadok, and that record is preserved in scripture for us. He was chosen by God and crowned to serve as high priest "king" in Ezekiel's temple, the one started and finished by Zerubbabel's hands. Ezekiel's temple and its priesthood are history by now - never to be physically rebuilt or restored, by God's command who changed both the law and the priesthood (Heb. 7:12).

      But after all, I can't see what connection your comment has with the historical record I gave above about the 8 high priest "kings of the earth" from the house of Annas that served from AD 6 until AD 66, and who fulfilled all the Revelation 17 prophecies about them. You're off on an unrelated tangent, Darfius. Stick to the topic of the original post, please.

      Comment


      • #4
        "According to the commandment" is not the same as "according to the specifications given in Ezekiel", which given the temple's importance to restoring the earth, was of critical importance. I already cited Ezekiel 47:8, which speaks of a river flowing from under the temple to restore the Dead Sea to life and obviously never happened with the 2nd temple, but the Millennial temple is meant to foreshadow the total healing God living among us will bring:

        Scripture Verse: Revelation 22

        Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

        © Copyright Original Source



        Both the Ezekiel passage and Revelation speak of "leaves which bring healing." This is of course intentional to link the two and make a point that cannot and should not be ignored if what the reader is after is the truth, rather than advancing her pet theory.

        I have addressed your ridiculous "we don't have genealogical records" argument before. God Himself will sort the tribes, as is made utterly plain in Revelation 7 when all the tribes of Israel, including the so-called "lost" tribes are delineated. As usual, you and your ilk ignore the plain meaning of the text, but Rev 7 clearly foretells a restoration of the physical kingdom of Israel in the last days, as every prophet from Moses onward foretold. Despite your idiotic claims to the contrary, Satan still clearly rules this world as a god and the true God will restore "His portion" of Israel to crush Satan's kingdom.

        This is all relevant to your OP because it shows its utter inadequacy as a theory. You persist in mistaking types and shadows for the genuine article. You do know men like Moses, Joseph, David and even Cyrus foreshadowed Christ right? So too did the partial return from exile of the Jews from Babylon and antichrist figures of Pharaoh, Antiochus Epiphanes, Nebuchadnezzar, Herod and Nero foreshadow the events and man of sin of the last days. God is the author of history and so can orchestrate events to act as these types and foreshadows, which he often uses as evidence of his Godhood:

        Scripture Verse: Isaiah 46


        8 “Remember this, keep it in mind,
        take it to heart, you rebels.
        9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; [TYPES AND SHADOWS]
        I am God, and there is no other;
        I am God, and there is none like me.

        10 I make known the end from the beginning,
        from ancient times, what is still to come
        .
        I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
        and I will do all that I please.’
        11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;
        from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
        What I have said, that I will bring about;
        what I have planned, that I will do.
        12 Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted,
        you who are now far from my righteousness.
        13 I am bringing my righteousness near,
        it is not far away;
        and my salvation will not be delayed.
        I will grant salvation to Zion,
        my splendor to Israel
        .

        © Copyright Original Source



        So even if your ridiculous theory about the high priests being "kings of the earth" were true, it would only be yet another TYPE of the TRUE fulfillment in the ACTUAL last days. But it isn't true. The high priests in the first century existed in their roles at the whims of ACTUAL kings--Rome or Rome's puppet vassals in the Herods. And here is an instance (among many) where "kings of the earth" clearly does not mean the "high priests of Israel":

        Scripture Verse: Revelation 18

        9 “And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of sexual immorality and lived luxuriously with her, will weep and mourn over her when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

        © Copyright Original Source



        I know, I know, "Babylon" was REALLY Jerusalem, even though Babylon is said here and elsewhere to sit "by many waters" and NOT ONCE is the statement CLEARLY made in Scripture that Jerusalem equals Babylon, but we have you, a woman, to tell us the TRUE MEANING of Scripture. But here is another glaring problem with that theory:

        Scripture Verse: Revelation 18

        21 Then a strong angel picked up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will never be found again. 22 And the sound of harpists, musicians, flute players, and trumpeters will never be heard in you again; and no craftsman of any craft will ever be found in you again; and the sound of a mill will never be heard in you again; 23 and the light of a lamp will never shine in you again; and the voice of the groom and bride will never be heard in you again; for your merchants were the powerful people of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your witchcraft. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

        © Copyright Original Source



        Hopefully you'll agree that the "strong angel" is an actual angel here and not Idumean officers, but it's clear that this city would be destroyed "never to be found again." In fact, specifically, "harpists, musicians, flute players..." and even "bride and groom" will never be heard in it again. Not sure if you "got the memo", but Jerusalem is a thriving city today with all of the above within its city limits. I know you preterists have a penchant for ignoring what Scripture is clear about and inserting your private interpretation whenever there is the slightest ambiguity, but this is pretty umdeniable.

        Comment


        • #5
          Darifius, I have no problem with a sort of "double fulfillment" of some prophecies, since we have such examples given to us in scripture ("out of Egypt have I called my son", "they shall look on him whom they pierced", "Behold I and the children whom thou hast given me", "Behold, a virgin shall conceive", etc.). But this cannot be said to be true of ALL prophecies without exception - only the ones that scripture gives us license to do so.

          As for the importance of Jewish tribal genealogies, you are making the same grave mistake about this that the Jews were making in Paul's day. Don't you remember how Paul strongly warned Timothy in I Tim. 1:4 that he was to teach the church NOT to give heed to "ENDLESS GENEALOGIES" that didn't edify? Same warning given in Titus 3:9. "But AVOID foolish questions, and GENEALOGIES, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are UNPROFITABLE AND VAIN." Paul taught even back then that tribal genealogies were a subject that should NOT have any attention given to it anymore.

          You say I am ignoring the importance of Revelation 7 and that list of tribes composing the 144,000. Far from it. I know EXACTLY who they WERE. Scripture tells us that those 144,000 mentioned first in Revelation 7 and again in Revelation 14 were "the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:4). Christ was also called the FIRSTFRUITS of those raised from the dead (I Cor. 15:20 and 23). Guess what? Since the 144,000 and Christ both shared that same title, that means the 144,000 FIRSTFRUITS saints (which were composed of those various tribes listed) were the ones raised from the dead along with Christ the Firstfruits in the First Resurrection in AD 33. The 144,000 were the Jewish Matthew 27:52-53 saints that Christ raised from those graves around Jerusalem along with Himself. These 144,000 are NOT future Jewish tribe members, as you suppose.

          The Jewish tribes were a feature of the OLD Covenant, which became an obsolete subject under the NEW Covenant, once they had served their intended purpose, culminating in Christ's proven ancestry coming from Judah. The continued mistaken emphasis on tribal genealogies after that was one of those "weak and beggarly elements" that was dead and decaying, and "ready to vanish away" soon in Paul's days. Don't you remember Malachi 4 describing the "great and dreadful day of the Lord", following John the Baptist's (Elijah's) ministry? That "day of the Lord" would "burn like an oven" (Jerusalem's AD 70 Lake of Fire) and incinerate the wicked, leaving them "neither ROOT NOR BRANCH" That means GENEALOGIES WOULD BE DESTROYED, giving evidence to all that tribal ancestry and progeny were by then a moot point in God's eyes.

          This is the very reason why the overthrow of Babylon the Great (yes, AD 70 Jerusalem) would eliminate the "voice of the bride and the voice of a bridegroom" in it. The supposed need for marriages to preserve Jewish tribal genealogies was obviously going to be squashed after the close of AD 70. As well as no longer having a "lamp" of the Menorah to shine in the destroyed Temple anymore, or the need for a mill to grind grain for sacrificial offerings, or the need for trained musicians to sing in the Temple, or for trumpets to be sounded on the formerly-required feast days, etc.. That whole list of merchandise found in Revelation 18:12-14 that was eliminated in Babylon the great's fall (AD 70 Jerusalem) was nothing less than the elimination of typical items that were once used in Temple worship and sacrifices.

          You have evidently not given any attention to how John links Jerusalem as "the GREAT CITY... where also our Lord was crucified" in Revelation 11:8 with his following mention of "That GREAT CITY Babylon" in Revelation 18. Rule of first mention, Darfius. Look it up. This isn't rocket science. The great city Jerusalem was represented by the harlot called Babylon the Great. It was JERUSALEM which Isaiah 1:21 had once called a "harlot", and which Christ said had the blood of the prophets and saints, and those slain on the earth, from Abel onward (Matt. 23:34-37). This directly compares with the harlot Babylon the great city in Revelation which had shed the blood of the prophets, saints, and all those slain on the earth (Rev. 18:24). Babylon the great city sitting on those "many waters" is defined by the angel as having connection with many peoples, and multitudes, nations, and tongues, all of which showed up at Jerusalem for the feast days celebrations. Jerusalem and Babylon the great were a spot-on match.


          That "GREAT CITY" Babylon / Jerusalem was then reigning over the high priest "kings of the earth" in John's days. That's because, (just as you yourself said above), Jerusalem's Roman governance was dictating who would serve as high priest "kings of the earth" and when they would be deposed. As an added humiliation, they also kept the high priest's vestments under lock and key in the Roman Antonia fortress instead of in the Temple, only doling them out at Rome's discretion for the feast days if the high priesthood was properly supportive of their Roman overlords. We all know that the Sanhedrin could not pass a death sentence unless it was sanctioned by Rome's governor. This was to have the religious leadership in Israel being "reigned over" by Babylon the great city / Jerusalem, just as Revelation 18:18 said was happening at the time John was writing Revelation. For the financial advantages that supporting Rome gave to the high priests, they had prostituted themselves to Rome, and Jerusalem had become a "harlot" in order to maintain "their place and their nation", which Caiphas desired to preserve.

          The Revelation 18:9-10 reference you gave above concerning the "kings of the earth" committing fornication with Babylon and living luxuriously with her is describing this same strange symbiotic relationship that the high priesthood had with Rome (the "clay" mixed with "iron" that didn't blend very well in Daniel's statue). Josephus gives us the names of the two high priest "kings of the earth" who were "standing afar off for fear of her torment", mourning over seeing Jerusalem's burning smoke. Their names were Joseph (ben Kabi - who served in AD 61), and Jesus (ben Danmaeus - who served in AD 62). These two former high priests, along with three sons of the high priest Ishmael, four sons of the high priest Matthias, a son of the high priest Matthias ben Boethus, and other members of Jerusalem's aristocracy escaped to the Romans after Josephus pleaded with Jerusalem to surrender. Titus sent all of these to Gophna, about 12-13 miles away (the "afar off" location Revelation 18:10 spoke of), promising that their fortunes would be restored to them after the war. He briefly recalled them just one time to Jerusalem, to plead one final time with their fellow Jews to surrender, but to no avail (Wars 6.2.2-3).

          As to the off-topic subject of Ezekiel's temple, that second temple built by Zerubbabel WAS THE MILLENNIAL TEMPLE - the millennium lasting from 968/967 BC through AD 33, which was the entire era of a physical worship system type, leading up to Christ, the chief corner foundation stone of the temple made of "living stones". The Revelation 20 millennium had ENDED before John was writing Revelation, which is very clear when you compare Revelation 12:12 with Revelation 20:3 and 7.

          The "revival" of ethnic Israel, which you say has not yet been fulfilled, Darfius, was pronounced accomplished by Ezra in Ezra 9:8-9. In his weeping prayer of confession to God for the nation, he said, "And NOW for a little space grace hath been shewed from the Lord our God, to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a nail in his holy place, that our God may lighten our eyes, and give us a little REVIVING in our bondage. For we were bondmen; yet our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, TO GIVE US A REVIVING, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a wall in Judah and in Jerusalem." You may think this reviving of Israel is yet future, Darfius, but you would be mistaken. Isaiah 65:15 said that God would end by slaying them, and would then call his servants by another name - the "ONE NEW MAN" reality we have today, with no national, tribal, or other divisions in it anymore.
          Last edited by 3 Resurrections; 08-08-2021, 02:43 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            St John says “kings”, not “[high] priests”. And there seems to be no reason to suppose that he may be thinking of the Hasmonean dynasty (though maybe he had them in mind ?).

            So i take it that by “kings (or sometimes, emperors)” he means kings or maybe emperors, Why use a word for Y, when one means Z ? The importance of the Kingship of God and of Christ, in Rev, in the Gospels, and in the New Testament as a whole, is in favour of understanding a reference to kings as a reference to people who were kings. Particularly as the second Psalm is quoted in chapter 12 of the book of Revelation, which recalls the use made of it elsewhere in the New Testament. The function of kings in Rev appears to be, to be defeated by the Messianic King enthroned by God, so that they acknowledge His.Kingship and His rule over them.

            Comment


            • #7
              Rushing Jaws, the reason why "kings of the earth " (tes ges - the land of Israel) was not referring to an ordinary monarch's role is because John was writing as one having a JEWISH background and heritage. For the Jews, a "king" did not carry the connotation of an emperor, but of a high priest. As in Exodus 19:6, when God told Moses, "And ye shall be unto me a KINGDOM OF *PRIESTS* and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." Originally, Israel's "royalty" was in her PRIESTHOOD who judged and represented the people for the duration of each high priest's lifetime - not a typical king which the pagan nations around them had. Of course, as you and I know, Israel eventually rebelled against that arrangement, and desired a king like all the other nations around them. But we are talking about how God designed the ethnic nation of Israel to function to begin with.

              When we hear Christ described as the "King of kings and Lord of lords", His status is being elevated as the ultimate HIGH PRIEST after the deathless order of Melchizedek, superior over all other high priests of the Levitical order who had gone before Him. The "Lord of lords" part of His title would then indicate His superior governance over all other governing institutions, like kings, emperors, governors, etc..

              We know that Paul directly referred to the high priest Ananias as the "RULER of thy people" when he was on trial in Acts 23:5. What is a ruler but a king?

              I once gave some reflection to the possibility that this might be the Herodian dynasty of kings in question here in Revelation 17. But even though there WERE 7 of the Herodian line, there was NOT an eighth king to follow Agrippa II, as Revelation 17 requires. And the activities of the "kings of the earth" in Revelation 17 did not match up with the history of the Herodian monarchs, as it does for the high priests of the house of Annas. For instance, Agrippa II did not "continue for a SHORT space", as the 7th king on this Scarlet Beast was going to do. Also, that 6th "king of the earth" would HAVE TO BE one that was CURRENTLY alive as John was writing, because John said that 6th king presently "IS" in existence. This limits the definition of that 6th "king" to someone that was a present, living person as John was writing.
              Last edited by 3 Resurrections; 08-10-2021, 08:55 PM.

              Comment

              Related Threads

              Collapse

              Topics Statistics Last Post
              Started by Darfius, Yesterday, 03:42 PM
              10 responses
              62 views
              0 likes
              Last Post Darfius
              by Darfius
               
              Started by Darfius, 09-03-2021, 05:50 PM
              8 responses
              115 views
              0 likes
              Last Post 3 Resurrections  
              Started by Darfius, 09-06-2017, 04:31 PM
              314 responses
              36,255 views
              0 likes
              Last Post seanD
              by seanD
               
              Working...
              X