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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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Giving the 'Blood Moon' claims some credit

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  • Giving the 'Blood Moon' claims some credit

    The Lunar Tetrad started 2014-2015. There was some religious leaders who may have went overboard, got a lot of attention, and they've since been vilified and shunned as a result.

    I was skeptical of it at the time, but looking back in hindsight, look what's happening in the world since then. The mistake everyone made is assuming this marked the "end of the world," as if it would be a sudden immediate event. But that isn't how even Jesus described the end. He described the end as a series of global upheavals that would gradually reach such a crescendo, he would return at the point of utter destruction of the entire world.

    Well, what it looks like from 2015, things definitely got worse and have gotten progressively worse every year since. And from the outlook of things happening now, there's no reason things this year and the following years won't keep getting even worse.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  • #2
    Would you mind sharing how you view the world as getting worse since 2015? I'm thinking my list will be different from yours.
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
      Would you mind sharing how you view the world as getting worse since 2015? I'm thinking my list will be different from yours.
      To that I would say maybe wait another year or two. I think at that point no one will have to ask that question.
      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
        Would you mind sharing how you view the world as getting worse since 2015? I'm thinking my list will be different from yours.
        To be specific:

        First of all 2010 was a decade of populous uprisings that started with the Arab Spring, but by 2014, Edited by a Moderator The populous surge is what got Trump elected here in the states. We know how everything fell apart between the Dems and Reps here in the states once Trump got elected, but these worldwide uprisings were persistent throughout that period.

        In the fall of 2019, we almost had another economic collapse like 2008, which would have cascaded globally, but our central bank intervened and pumped literally hundreds of billions into the system to keep it from collapsing.

        Then we all know what 2020 wrought upon us.

        We see this progressive period of upheaval from 2014-2015 to the present.

        Moderated By: QuantaFille

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        Last edited by QuantaFille; Yesterday, 08:34 AM.
        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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        • #5
          Originally posted by seanD View Post

          To be specific:

          First of all 2010 was a decade of populous uprisings that started with the Arab Spring, but by 2014, Edited by a Moderator The populous surge is what got Trump elected here in the states. We know how everything fell apart between the Dems and Reps here in the states once Trump got elected, but these worldwide uprisings were persistent throughout that period.

          In the fall of 2019, we almost had another economic collapse like 2008, which would have cascaded globally, but our central bank intervened and pumped literally hundreds of billions into the system to keep it from collapsing.

          Then we all know what 2020 wrought upon us.

          We see this progressive period of upheaval from 2014-2015 to the present.
          Oh shoot, I should warn that there's some graphic nudity in my first link Edited by a Moderatorso viewer BEWARE.
          Last edited by QuantaFille; 07-21-2021, 06:42 PM.
          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seanD View Post
            The Lunar Tetrad started 2014-2015. There was some religious leaders who may have went overboard, got a lot of attention, and they've since been vilified and shunned as a result.

            I was skeptical of it at the time, but looking back in hindsight, look what's happening in the world since then. The mistake everyone made is assuming this marked the "end of the world," as if it would be a sudden immediate event. But that isn't how even Jesus described the end. He described the end as a series of global upheavals that would gradually reach such a crescendo, he would return at the point of utter destruction of the entire world.

            Well, what it looks like from 2015, things definitely got worse and have gotten progressively worse every year since. And from the outlook of things happening now, there's no reason things this year and the following years won't keep getting even worse.
            Factoring in Matt 27:37-41 and Luke 17:26-37, I find it unlikely. There have always been wars, natural disasters, and economic upheavals - and Jesus was saying that there always will be, right up to the end. Nothing in the natural world will herald his return.
            But a number of things must happen before that time, and I can find nothing in history that can reasonably be associated with the two witnesses of Revelation, the proclamation of the gospel in all the world, or the great falling away.
            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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            • #7
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              Factoring in Matt 27:37-41 and Luke 17:26-37, I find it unlikely. There have always been wars, natural disasters, and economic upheavals - and Jesus was saying that there always will be, right up to the end. Nothing in the natural world will herald his return.
              But a number of things must happen before that time, and I can find nothing in history that can reasonably be associated with the two witnesses of Revelation, the proclamation of the gospel in all the world, or the great falling away.
              I won't go into too much detail because I discussed that here. It's not necessarily the events themselves, because those events were happening even before Jesus said that. The key is Jesus' "You will hear." It's how we hear about this things that makes it distinct. This means not just how the world would perceive these events (the sheer magnitude of all the information fed to us about the events on a daily basis), but how we hear about the events (practically instantly if not in real-time), which makes this generation unique than any other, and I believe is the "generation" sign Jesus was referring to. In short it's our communication tech -- how we hear about it -- that is the generation distinction.



              Originally posted by seanD View Post

              To be specific:

              First of all 2010 was a decade of populist uprisings that started with the Arab Spring, but by 2014, Edited by a Moderator The populist surge is what got Trump elected here in the states. We know how everything fell apart between the Dems and Reps here in the states once Trump got elected, but these worldwide uprisings were persistent throughout that period.

              In the fall of 2019, we almost had another economic collapse like 2008, which would have cascaded globally, but our central bank intervened and pumped literally hundreds of billions into the system to keep it from collapsing.

              Then we all know what 2020 wrought upon us.

              We see this progressive period of upheaval from 2014-2015 to the present.
              Sorry about the graphic nude pics. I didn't realize they were there until it was too late. Here's an article (albeit absent any pics) discussing the populist uprisings during the last decade.
              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

              Comment


              • #8
                I just scanned through the Olivet Discourse to refresh myself on what it says. Yes, it does mention the wars, natural disasters, etc. as the beginnings of the birth pangs. However, it goes on to say when the persecution hits, then look for the return of the Lord. At least in the US, we're not persecuted - yet. This is one of my issues with Christians looking at end times. They put too much emphasis on the political and natural and don't really talk about the religious or spiritual aspects of the end times.

                Also when I view end times, I bring in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. The only reason I think we might be approaching the end times is I think we may be seeing this type of people becoming the normal in society.
                "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                  I just scanned through the Olivet Discourse to refresh myself on what it says. Yes, it does mention the wars, natural disasters, etc. as the beginnings of the birth pangs. However, it goes on to say when the persecution hits, then look for the return of the Lord. At least in the US, we're not persecuted - yet. This is one of my issues with Christians looking at end times. They put too much emphasis on the political and natural and don't really talk about the religious or spiritual aspects of the end times.

                  Also when I view end times, I bring in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. The only reason I think we might be approaching the end times is I think we may be seeing this type of people becoming the normal in society.
                  The bolded and underlined is why my intense dislike bordering on hatred for Western "Christians" is sometimes overly apparent in my posts. Why does Western persecution carry more weight than the brothers and sisters suffering in Christ's name around the world? Whether you believe that you will be "raptured out before it gets too bad", that bad things only happen to first century Jews or "the end times will only be upon us when it affects me personally", I find the philosophy vile and inherently anti-Christian in nature.

                  I agree with the premise of your OP, sean. I would also add the "Revelation 12 sign" in 2017, which may or may not have been a divinely orchestrated sign, but caused a ruckus in both believing and unbelieving circles.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                    The bolded and underlined is why my intense dislike bordering on hatred for Western "Christians" is sometimes overly apparent in my posts. Why does Western persecution carry more weight than the brothers and sisters suffering in Christ's name around the world? Whether you believe that you will be "raptured out before it gets too bad", that bad things only happen to first century Jews or "the end times will only be upon us when it affects me personally", I find the philosophy vile and inherently anti-Christian in nature.

                    I agree with the premise of your OP, sean. I would also add the "Revelation 12 sign" in 2017, which may or may not have been a divinely orchestrated sign, but caused a ruckus in both believing and unbelieving circles.
                    Of course Western persecution doesn't carry more weight. I'm pointing out the lack of it. Since the Bible indicates persecution will be global and the west doesn't have persecution therefore we are not in the end times.

                    Years ago, I was pre-trib rapture. Since then, the more I've read the Bible, the less convincing I find pre-trib rapture to be. I don't have a position right now on the tribulation and rapture and the timing thereof.
                    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                      I just scanned through the Olivet Discourse to refresh myself on what it says. Yes, it does mention the wars, natural disasters, etc. as the beginnings of the birth pangs. However, it goes on to say when the persecution hits, then look for the return of the Lord. At least in the US, we're not persecuted - yet. This is one of my issues with Christians looking at end times. They put too much emphasis on the political and natural and don't really talk about the religious or spiritual aspects of the end times.

                      Also when I view end times, I bring in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. The only reason I think we might be approaching the end times is I think we may be seeing this type of people becoming the normal in society.
                      You actually raise a pretty good point. I've too wondered that myself and marveled why we Americans seem to be the only country not going through persecution like the rest of the Christians are currently going through around the world.

                      To that I would say -- what makes you think this won't eventually happen here? Especially considering the speed at which this country is being taken over by hostile antichrist forces?

                      The OD gives no timeline how long these things would occur, but we know it will occur within a generation. If we theorize the clock started in 2000 we'd at least have until 2040 for the final culmination of these things to transpire, give or take. You don't think by 2040 Christians here in America will be getting slaughtered like they are around the world? I think that's highly possible, in fact, since I believe these things are rapidly building and progressing over time, I'd give it a mere couple of years this happens here.
                      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seanD View Post

                        You actually raise a pretty good point. I've too wondered that myself and marveled why we Americans seem to be the only country not going through persecution like the rest of the Christians are currently going through around the world.

                        To that I would say -- what makes you think this won't eventually happen here? Especially considering the speed at which this country is being taken over by hostile antichrist forces?

                        The OD gives no timeline how long these things would occur, but we know it will occur within a generation. If we theorize the clock started in 2000 we'd at least have until 2040 for the final culmination of these things to transpire, give or take. You don't think by 2040 Christians here in America will be getting slaughtered like they are around the world? I think that's highly possible, in fact, since I believe these things are rapidly building and progressing over time, I'd give it a mere couple of years this happens here.
                        I thought the tribulation was supposed to be 7 years? If it started in 2015 shouldn't it end next year?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                          I thought the tribulation was supposed to be 7 years? If it started in 2015 shouldn't it end next year?
                          Personally, I don't buy that. There's nothing in Revelation or even the OD that alludes to 7 years. This is just a theory dispensationalists view from Daniel, which to me, is very debatable.
                          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by seanD View Post

                            You actually raise a pretty good point. I've too wondered that myself and marveled why we Americans seem to be the only country not going through persecution like the rest of the Christians are currently going through around the world.

                            To that I would say -- what makes you think this won't eventually happen here? Especially considering the speed at which this country is being taken over by hostile antichrist forces?

                            The OD gives no timeline how long these things would occur, but we know it will occur within a generation. If we theorize the clock started in 2000 we'd at least have until 2040 for the final culmination of these things to transpire, give or take. You don't think by 2040 Christians here in America will be getting slaughtered like they are around the world? I think that's highly possible, in fact, since I believe these things are rapidly building and progressing over time, I'd give it a mere couple of years this happens here.
                            Persecution will happen in the US - it is only a matter of time. I've given up trying to predict when. I just wish I was doing a better job of preparing for it if when is tomorrow or 20 years by now.
                            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by seanD View Post

                              Personally, I don't buy that. There's nothing in Revelation or even the OD that alludes to 7 years. This is just a theory dispensationalists view from Daniel, which to me, is very debatable.
                              What's the "OD?"

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