Originally posted by 3 Resurrections
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I have JUST WRITTEN above that PHYSICALLY we shall walk with God again on this earth, just as you have also said above. (Which is at the close of the 7th millennium, which starts in 2033.) Yet you are charging me with "high and mighty 'spiritual' speak" for saying the same thing you are on this point. This is again contradictory. Scripture tells us that God did not create this world in vain, but He "formed it to be inhabited". Meaning resurrected saints will still have this world in which we can dwell, even after the final resurrection in our future.
You are presuming that I am writing with an attitude of pride. Only God can know if that is true or not. "The righteous are bold as a lion", we are told. Try not to mistake boldness for pride, Darfius. I would never think of charging you with this accusation, no matter how insistent you may be with expressing your views. I post on many other Christian forums, and have been excoriated by some in all the camps of the Full Preterists, Partial Preterists, Premillennial Dispensationalists, etc. I have a very thick hide, and ridicule and name-calling does not hurt my feelings. Nine years ago I had to lay everything I ever was taught from scripture by various teachers on the altar, and offer it back to God. If what I was taught was truth, I hold fast to it. If it was false, I want no further part of it.
I find it curiously odd that you are charging me with using "wooden literalism" in my interpretations of the time markers in Revelation. Odd, because it is usually the FULL PRETERIST who accuses the Futurist of doing this very thing.
I once used to believe as you do about the "brightness of his coming" in II Thess. 2 being Christ's coming return that would slay the Man of Lawlessness. If you look more carefully at the sentence structure, it can't possibly be *Christ's* coming discussed there, because the very same sentence concludes with "WHOSE COMING IS AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN, with all power, and signs, and LYING WONDERS." Christ does not lie, and He does not come imitating Satan. So the particular referent for the "coming" there under discussion has to be instead the brightness of the *Man of Lawlessness's* coming on the scene, with power, signs, and lying wonders that were all snuffed out along with his death. And Christ's bodily return was not said to take place at the same time when the Man of Lawlessness would die.
As usual once actual Scripture is consulted, your lies and folly are exposed several times over.
1. Hebrew parallelism makes it clear that Jesus will both "overthrow" the Antichrist "with the breath of his mouth" and "destroy" the Antichrist "by the splendor of his coming." We know it's the Antichrist who is "destroyed" because earlier he is called "the man doomed to destruction." Also, a man playing dress up did not have "splendor" in his coming, which by the way is the Greek word "parousia".
2. Both Christ and the Antichrist are said to have a "parousia" because one is the twisted mirror of the other, so because One had an Advent (and will have another), so will the other.
3. The ambiguity of the shared language is intentional to symbolize the cosmic battle between Christ and Antichrist, a method also used quite significantly in Daniel:
Notice the ambiguity about what "ruler" is being spoken of when. Notice how both the Anointed One and the one who sets up the abomination of desolation will be killed, though in very different manners and to very different ends. Who will confirm "a covenant?" Apparently both. The ambiguity is intentional.
Also notice how the destruction of the temple is mentioned but later an abomination is set up in the temple. That's because the city and the temple are rebuilt "in times of trouble" (Jacob's trouble = Tribulation).
There are other ways Daniel contributes to the full picture:
The "little horn" is one of the titles of the Antichrist as I covered in my thread of the same title (part of the correction you are refusing). Notice he is "destroyed" by "blazing fire" which echoes his fate in both the Thessalonian passage and Revelation 19. See how the Bible interprets itself and we do not require some uppity woman to uppity womansplain for us?
Originally posted by 3 Resurrections
And since you're such a big fan of time texts, explain why the saints aren't ruling the earth the same way these beast empires did if Jesus has already "come". Verse 27 says "THEN", WHEN the Antichrist/little horn is destroyed is WHEN they inherit the kingdom.
Two more points regarding the Thessalonians passage: 4. The Antichrist/man of sin is said to carry out his mission to "serve the lie". AT THE SAME TIME, God sends a "powerful delusion" to deceive everyone who believes "the lie", tying the Antichrist directly with this time of "powerful delusion." When was this time of "powerful delusion", what was the powerful delusion and in what way did your Zealot playing dress up for two weeks "serve" it? Allow me to mansplain it for you: https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...9585-the-elect
5. The Antichrist/man of sin is said to proclaim himself God IN GOD'S TEMPLE. According to you, this happened in 66 AD, LONG AFTER Christ came and allegedly "became the only Temple" ACCORDING TO YOU. Why would Paul under inspiration of God call a worthless building "God's temple" rather than "the building falsely called God's temple?" Isn't that confusing? Is God a God of confusion? Or is the simplest and best explanation that you are running your mouth when you should remain silent "as is the practice in all the churches" to quote another of Paul's sayings.
Christ did indeed come to fulfill the Law. That Law INCLUDED His promise to cast away the house that had His name given to it, if the children of Israel failed to remain faithful. The "Song of Moses" was the song of this judgment taught to God's ethnic people, that would be fulfilled in their latter days. That song of Moses was finally sung back in the first century when the desolated temple structure and the outdated priesthood system met its physical end in the close of AD 70. It would never be found again, just like the great stone thrown by the angel into the sea, and just like the fig tree that Christ cursed, saying "no man eat fruit of thee hereafter forever."
1. The ten Northern tribes of Israel were "scattered" before the Southern tribes of Judah, Benjamin and some of Levi and ONLY THE SOUTHERN TRIBES CAME BACK FROM BABYLON. That is CLEARLY not a fulfillment of the MANY prophecies in the Bible of a "glorious" regathering" of ALL ISRAEL. The return from Babylon was a TYPE and SYMBOL of the TRUE fulfillment. Mixing types with the real deal is your problem and the problem of the preterists who care more about man's opinion than God's.
2. Babylon is NOT "the most distant land under the heavens". It wasn't even the most distant land the Jews were aware of (they knew of Spain and China).
3. The Jews who returned from Babylon numbered a few tens of thousands and never grew "more prosperous" or "more numerous" than Israel at the projected height of its ancient population:
The Torah contains a number of statements as to the number of (adult, male) Hebrews that left Egypt, the descendants of the seventy sons and grandsons of Jacob who took up their residence in that country. Altogether, including Levites, the number given is 611,730. For non-Levites, this represents men fit for military service, i.e. between twenty and sixty years of age; among the Levites the relevant number is those obligated in temple service (males between twenty and fifty years of age). This would imply a population of about 3,000,000. The Census of David is said to have recorded 1,300,000 males over twenty years of age, which would imply a population of over 5,000,000. The number of exiles who returned from Babylon is given at 42,360. Tacitus declares that Jerusalem at its fall contained 600,000 persons; Josephus, that there were as many as 1,100,000 slain in the destruction of Jerusalem in CE 70, along with 97,000 who were sold as slaves. However, Josephus also qualifies this count, noting that Jerusalem was besieged during the Passover. The majority of the 1,197,000 would not have been residents of the city, but rather were visiting for the festival. These appear (writes Jacobs)[2] to be all the figures accessible for ancient times, and their trustworthiness is a matter of dispute. 1,100,000 is comparable to the population of the largest cities that existed anywhere in the world before the 19th century, but geographically the Old City of Jerusalem is just a few per cent the size of such cities as ancient Rome, Constantinople, Edo period Tokyo and Han Dynasty Xi'an. The difficulties of commissariat in the Sinai desert for such a number as 3,000,000 have been pointed out by John William Colenso
Of course I think Wiki is lowballing:
That's over one million fighting age men just in the two Southern tribes. Projecting to the other tribes has numbers which at least match the modern day figure of roughly 14 million (allegedly). Speaking of which, why do the Jews still exist in your silly philosophy? Isn't God done with them? Why would He make them more prosperous and numerous now after having scattered them and wiped His hands of them? That don't make a lick o' sense. Which brings me to why I included Deuteronomy 30:11-14:
Paul quotes Moses about the scattering and regathering HERE AT THE BEGINNING of his argument about why God HAS NOT ABANDONED THE JEWS which culminates in Romans 11 where he says one day the Gentiles will be called to account in the same way the Jews were. Proving that the regathering IN VIEW was the regathering "at the end of the age" and not the trickle from Babylon in the time before Christ.
As another cherry on top (ooh sticky sweet), NOTE how Moses speaks of "crossing the sea" while Paul speaks of "descending into the deep" (another word for the sea in Scripture) and EQUATES IT TO GOING DOWN TO THE ABODE OF THE DEAD. Proving definitively that when Jonah spoke of crying out to God "from the midst of the sea", he meant from the abode of the dead. He died, lil mama, and he resurrected to a MORTAL BODY, not a "glorified one." Lay your pet theory to rest before it seeks death and can't find it (like in Revelation that you can't explain).
The Lord Jesus Himself is said to be the Temple of the New Jerusalem. Wherever His presence is, there the Temple is. Even when two or more are gathered together on the internet in His name. For sacrifices, we offer our bodies as "living sacrifices" unto Him. One day in the final resurrection, we will behold Him face to face - and the Temple will be complete in the fullest sense.
Clearly the sun and moon are still a'shinin', so this hasn't happened yet.
AND FOR ANOTHER CHERRY ON TOP (DIABEETUS), notice in verses 24-26 OFFERINGS ARE STILL BROUGHT TO GOD.
If you are still prideful and foolish and sinful enough to respond after this thrashing, I do not feel inclined to waste any more time or energy on you, though of course I will follow as the Spirit leads. I hope "having the last word" is not a temptation you cannot overcome.
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