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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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  • #31
    I'm ready today.

    Just sayin.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      I'm ready today.

      Just sayin.
      I don't presume to make a claim like that.

      I HOPE I'm ready and pray to God I'm ready -- physically, mentally and spiritually -- and can withstand what's coming. Knowing it's coming can definitely help.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        1. As in, Matthew 24 and parallels? Yes.
        2. Gematria proves fairly conclusively that the beast is Nero (confirmed by the variant number of the beast 616, which works for Nero in Latin).

        The passage appears to allude to Nero's failed persecution of the church.
        Where were the "armies of heaven" that attended Christ's 2nd coming? What was Nero's "mark" that required acceptance to participate in the economy and was placed in the right hand or forehead? Who was Nero's false prophet and when were the two of them "tossed alive" into the lake of fire?

        Comment


        • #34
          Begging your pardon, Darfius, but Ezekiel gave details of God's "blue-print" plans for the POST-EXILIC Temple and its rituals; a temple started and finished by Zerubbabel's hands. It was constructed in the very middle of the millennium years (968/967 BC through AD 33), so technically speaking, you COULD call it a millennium temple. A long-past millennium, that is. After the post-exilic return, God specifically limited Ezekiel's temple's high priesthood to only members of the Zadok family, of which lineage Joshua son of Josedech had a proven scriptural record .

          Ezekiel's temple cannot possibly be a temple built in our future, or in any period at all following AD 70. That is because the genealogical records were all burned up, and there is no way since back then to prove a formerly-required unbroken genealogical line of the Zadok family to serve as high priests anymore. God intended that OT priesthood to step aside forever, once the law changed with Christ made the high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

          It sounds as if you are admitting that after Joshua son of Josedech's anointing as high priest, that the title of king and priest merged. That would prove my point. I know that around Maccabean times, the position of king and priest were definitely united in one person, (I'd have to look up the names of the individuals), which also aligns with the point I'm making about the high priests being called "kings of the earth".

          It was Ezekiel's temple started and finished by Zerubbabel, (to which Herod made extensive renovations), that had the Man of Lawlessness present himself in it, claiming to be the Messiah king of the Jews back in AD 66. His name was Menahem; son or grandson of Judas the Galilean Zealot of Acts 5:37. With his army, this Zealot leader Menahem managed to steal armor and Herod's royal regalia from Masada, and according to Josephus, show himself "in pompous fashion" in the temple dressed as the King of the Jews (a title belonging only to Christ). I've written about the identity of this man before at gracecentered.com in their End Times forum, with a post I called "The 'Man of Lawlessness' was a first-century Zealot". His career of advancing his own cause was brief indeed: only a matter of a couple weeks before Menahem and the "brightness of his coming" was snuffed out by his Zealot rival Eleazar.



          For SeanD, I've not said that Jerusalem was the only location that Christ intended to judge in the AD 70 era. It wasn't. Paul on Mars Hill warned the Athenians that "...He hath appointed a day, in the which he IS *ABOUT TO* JUDGE THE WORLD in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained..." (Acts 17:31). This was more than just Jerusalem facing judgment; it was judgment that was worldwide in scope in the fast-approaching AD 70 era. Likewise in Revelation 3:10, Christ told the church at Philadelphia that "...I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which IS *ABOUT TO* COME UPON ALL THE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Again - judgment worldwide in scope that was soon to come to pass back then, followed by Christ's BODILY return to the Mount of Olives - His parousia.




          Comment


          • #35
            For Cow Poke and SeanD,

            I'm not preparing for Christ's second coming. It's already past since AD 70. What I AM preparing for is the soon-coming transition in 2033 from the 6th millennium to the last, 7th millennium of fallen man's history on this planet, which will eventually close with Christ's THIRD coming. Two years ago my husband and I took out a modest HELOC to renovate our home. Thousands of hours of sweat equity I have poured into this project, in order to prep our home for what I would term the world's last "Sabbath" millennium, and our being able to live sustainably by sheltering in place. Think basic needs - REALLY basic needs. And as much as possible, form really good relationships with your neighbors; we're going to need each other.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
              Begging your pardon, Darfius, but Ezekiel gave details of God's "blue-print" plans for the POST-EXILIC Temple and its rituals; a temple started and finished by Zerubbabel's hands. It was constructed in the very middle of the millennium years (968/967 BC through AD 33), so technically speaking, you COULD call it a millennium temple. A long-past millennium, that is. After the post-exilic return, God specifically limited Ezekiel's temple's high priesthood to only members of the Zadok family, of which lineage Joshua son of Josedech had a proven scriptural record .
              And round and round we go...

              Scripture Verse: Ezekiel 43

              43 Then the man brought me to the gate facing east, 2 and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory. 3 The vision I saw was like the vision I had seen when he came to destroy the city and like the visions I had seen by the Kebar River, and I fell facedown. 4 The glory of the Lord entered the temple through the gate facing east. 5 Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court, and the glory of the Lord filled the temple.

              6 While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple. 7 He said: “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet. This is where I will live among the Israelites forever. The people of Israel will never again defile my holy name—neither they nor their kings—by their prostitution and the funeral offerings for their kings at their death. 8 When they placed their threshold next to my threshold and their doorposts beside my doorposts, with only a wall between me and them, they defiled my holy name by their detestable practices. So I destroyed them in my anger. 9 Now let them put away from me their prostitution and the funeral offerings for their kings, and I will live among them forever.

              10 “Son of man, describe the temple to the people of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their sins. Let them consider its perfection, 11 and if they are ashamed of all they have done, make known to them the design of the temple—its arrangement, its exits and entrances—its whole design and all its regulations and laws. Write these down before them so that they may be faithful to its design and follow all its regulations.

              12 This is the law of the temple: All the surrounding area on top of the mountain will be most holy. Such is the law of the temple.

              © Copyright Original Source



              This is not some post-exilic temple doomed to be destroyed and which was only ever the vestige of a dying and corrupt priesthood ACCORDING TO YOU. God is very clear that when THIS temple is built, the LAND around it will be "most holy" and it will be the PLACE He will dwell "forever" among THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL who will NEVER AGAIN defile His holy name. There are so many disqualifiers for your nonsense theory in just these passages alone.

              And before you come at me with some bull feces about how we are the temple now, there is no hint of such an abstract, absurd notion in the NT. The closest idea to it is when Paul says that we as a corporate body of believers are the temple of the SPIRIT of God to crown his argument about the foundations he laid in the "construction" of new, SPIRIT-filled men and women in Christ. And this was only building upon--pun intended--the claim that the Lord Jesus Himself made that He was the temple of God, He being the Head of the Body of which we (God willing) are members. Of course, in the Lord's case, that was literally the case in a way it could never be for us, since He was God in the flesh, but just as "heaven, even the highest heaven, cannot contain Him, much less the temple", when the Spirit of God rests upon us, we become holier than any "building made with human hands" could ever be.

              But the temple in which the Lord in His PHYSICAL body will dwell among us will not be "made by human hands", being built according to His exact specifications, unlike every temple built before. And the Lord "dwelled between the cherubim" of the ark of the covenant in the temple. It shall be His throne again when the pretensions of the Son of Perdition are laid bare.

              Ezekiel's temple cannot possibly be a temple built in our future, or in any period at all following AD 70. That is because the genealogical records were all burned up, and there is no way since back then to prove a formerly-required unbroken genealogical line of the Zadok family to serve as high priests anymore. God intended that OT priesthood to step aside forever, once the law changed with Christ made the high priest after the order of Melchizedek.
              Scripture Verse: Ezekiel 20

              30 “Therefore say to the Israelites: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Will you defile yourselves the way your ancestors did and lust after their vile images? 31 When you offer your gifts—the sacrifice of your children in the fire—you continue to defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. Am I to let you inquire of me, you Israelites? As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I will not let you inquire of me.

              32 “‘You say, “We want to be like the nations, like the peoples of the world, who serve wood and stone.” But what you have in mind will never happen. 33 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I will reign over you with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with outpoured wrath. 34 I will bring you from the nations and gather you from the countries where you have been scattered—with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with outpoured wrath. 35 I will bring you into the wilderness of the nations and there, face to face, I will execute judgment upon you. 36 As I judged your ancestors in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will judge you, declares the Sovereign Lord. 37I will take note of you as you pass under my rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant. 38 I will purge you of those who revolt and rebel against me. Although I will bring them out of the land where they are living, yet they will not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

              39 “‘As for you, people of Israel, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: Go and serve your idols, every one of you! But afterward you will surely listen to me and no longer profane my holy name with your gifts and idols. 40For on my holy mountain, the high mountain of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord, there in the land all the people of Israel will serve me, and there I will accept them. There I will require your offerings and your choice gifts, along with all your holy sacrifices. 41 I will accept you as fragrant incense when I bring you out from the nations and gather you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will be proved holy through you in the sight of the nations. 42 Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the land of Israel, the land I had sworn with uplifted hand to give to your ancestors. 43 There you will remember your conduct and all the actions by which you have defiled yourselves, and you will loathe yourselves for all the evil you have done. 44 You will know that I am the Lord, when I deal with you for my name’s sake and not according to your evil ways and your corrupt practices, you people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”

              © Copyright Original Source



              This has not happened before. But it will. Without understanding that there will be a second and greater Exodus, you cannot understand eschatology. As for "pass under my rod":

              Scripture Verse: Leviticus 27

              30 “‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord. 31 Whoever would redeem any of their tithe must add a fifth of the value to it. 32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord. 33 No one may pick out the good from the bad or make any substitution. If anyone does make a substitution, both the animal and its substitute become holy and cannot be redeemed.’”

              34 These are the commands the Lord gave Moses at Mount Sinai for the Israelites.

              © Copyright Original Source



              The Good Shepherd will gather and sort His flock again as He once did. Sort them into the tribes present in Revelation 7. Kind of like the sorting hat in Harry Potter. "Judah!" "Levi!" "Reuben!" Sons of Zadok will be present. Besides, it is foolishness to suggest that God Almighty could not cause genealogical records to "sprout from the ground" if He so desired.

              It sounds as if you are admitting that after Joshua son of Josedech's anointing as high priest, that the title of king and priest merged. That would prove my point. I know that around Maccabean times, the position of king and priest were definitely united in one person, (I'd have to look up the names of the individuals), which also aligns with the point I'm making about the high priests being called "kings of the earth".
              After the exile, the Jews were ruled by governors, not kings, and the Maccabees declared themselves kings. In the time of Jesus, the Herods were vassal kings of Rome and the priests most certainly were not kings.

              It was Ezekiel's temple started and finished by Zerubbabel, (to which Herod made extensive renovations), that had the Man of Lawlessness present himself in it, claiming to be the Messiah king of the Jews back in AD 66. His name was Menahem; son or grandson of Judas the Galilean Zealot of Acts 5:37. With his army, this Zealot leader Menahem managed to steal armor and Herod's royal regalia from Masada, and according to Josephus, show himself "in pompous fashion" in the temple dressed as the King of the Jews (a title belonging only to Christ). I've written about the identity of this man before at gracecentered.com in their End Times forum, with a post I called "The 'Man of Lawlessness' was a first-century Zealot". His career of advancing his own cause was brief indeed: only a matter of a couple weeks before Menahem and the "brightness of his coming" was snuffed out by his Zealot rival Eleazar.
              Zerubbabel is obviously a symbolic stand in as his contemporary Joshua was. This would be clear to you if you had more discernment and less uppity mouth running:

              Scripture Verse: Zechariah 4

              6 So he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the Lord Almighty.

              7 “What are you, mighty mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become level ground. Then he will bring out the capstone to shouts of ‘God bless it! God bless it!’”

              8 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 9 “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands will also complete it. Then you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you.

              10 “Who dares despise the day of small things, since the seven eyes of the Lord that range throughout the earth will rejoice when they see the chosen capstone in the hand of Zerubbabel?”

              11 Then I asked the angel, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?”

              12 Again I asked him, “What are these two olive branches beside the two gold pipes that pour out golden oil?”

              13 He replied, “Do you not know what these are?”

              “No, my lord,” I said.

              14 So he said, “These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth.”

              © Copyright Original Source



              Like Zerubbabel, the two witnesses oversee the rebuilding of the Temple:

              Scripture Verse: Revelation 11

              1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”

              © Copyright Original Source



              As for some poor sap ("Menahem") who played dress up for "a couple of weeks" being "the beast" who would "oppress the saints" and have the entire world taking his mark to participate in the economy and worship him, at this point your words go beyond absurd to blasphemous and dangerous to people seeking the actual truth. You desperately need to repent of your sin and presumption.

              You have taken historical events that were only ever meant to act as signs to point towards the true and greater fulfillments as the things themselves. You have traded the Creator for created things and have taken away from Revelation which places you under a curse.

              When Gabriel says in Daniel that the time of the end will come "when the rebels have become completely wicked", how could you possibly think that time could come when the Master's name had only been known a few dozen years? Of course the Jews were wrong to reject Him and they have suffered enough for that wrong, but what of the world at large now that has had thousands of years to gaze upon, bear witness to and fall at the feet of His revealed glory? Who as a whole stand in open rebellion to His character and laws? Shall He punish His own people and leave the ungodly unpunished? God forbid!

              The world is poised to drink of the cup of His righteous wrath and shame on you and anyone who dares speak otherwise. Rather than being the watchman you were called to be, warning others of their peril so that their blood is not upon your hands, you seek to soothe the fears and therefore consciences of those would do right to fear, since fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

              Comment


              • #37
                Darfius, You are wildly flinging out judgment right and left without even knowing what position I hold concerning God's current and future dealings with men. I do indeed agree with you that the world at large is ripe for judgment in this present time. It has indeed had a couple thousand years to conform to Christ's image, but has generally grown in open rebellion against God's character and laws, which WILL be brought to account.

                We are indeed "poised to drink of the cup of His righteous wrath". A river of blood from the murder of the unborn cries out to God from the sewers and trash dumps of the world. The world cannot flout God's laws concerning marriage between one man and one woman without calling down judgment on our heads. And I believe the scripture's patterns of the 7 total millennia of fallen man's history on this planet show us just when God's coming judgment will fall. As I said in reply #35 above, the transition from the ending of the 6th millennium into the 7th millennium will come soon by 2033 (two thousand years from Christ's resurrection in AD 33 at the close of the Rev. 20 millennium). This is GOD'S Y2K date coming in 2033.

                God has ever put a superabundant blessing on the "6th" period of things in scripture (the 6th day, the 6th year, etc). We cannot deny that the world's prosperity has surged exponentially in this 6th millennium, ever since the ending of the so-called "Dark Ages" . So much of that blessing has become warped into serving the base desires of sinful men. But look for the entire world to implode by the ending of this 6th millennium, and pass into the 7th as a type of "Sabbath" millennium beginning in 2033. This, I believe, is when God will squash the mad pursuit of pleasure and rebellion against Him, and force the world to "be still and know that I am God". Apparently all He has to do to accomplish this is to allow something like the Covid19 virus to materialize, for example.

                God's Spirit does its best work when believers are under duress and/or persecution. When He wants to bring His people close to Himself, He brings them into the wilderness and makes them dependent upon Him for their very survival with daily bread and water. None of this will be a fulfillment of the prophecies that Revelation listed, which already took place at times that were then "AT HAND" to them in the first century. Instead, these will be the fulfillment of the "sealed up" prophecies which the 7 thunders uttered in Revelation 10:4, and which John did not write down for that generation, since they were intended for times future to AD 70 - such as now.

                (By the way, you are conflating the verses about the Man of Lawlessness with the verses describing the Beast empire. Two different contexts. He was only one minor character PART of the Beast's features. Scripture never says he was the Beast itself, per se. You have blown up the Man of Lawlessness's activities into a consummately evil super-hero of sorts, when Paul said that the "brightness of his coming" on the scene of history was not destined to last very long at all, once He tried to elevate himself. He was only a "flash in the pan" as it were, that served mainly as a time marker for the believers to recognize the AD 66 beginning of the Great Tribulation.)

                As for the Temple which Christ established with Himself as the "Chief Cornerstone", I would say with Paul, "WHAT? Know ye not that your bodies are the Temple of the living God? Which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" As believers are added into God's kingdom, we are being "built up an holy temple unto the Lord". As a vibrantly mobile Temple with the Spirit residing in each of us, we are a vast improvement over the stationary, physical Temple which God destined for destruction in that first-century generation. Don't you recognize the current Temple as the anti-type fulfillment of the OT type? Why do you think God would revert to the Old Temple system again, when the New is so much better? We need no more physical temple with priests or high priests, since we all have access by One Man unto the Father.

                It is you, Darfius, who have taken away the Revelation prophecies from the very ones they were promised to in the first century. And you have added them to yourself, when they were clearly "AT HAND" and "SOON" to happen for them back then.
                Last edited by 3 Resurrections; 07-22-2021, 06:31 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
                  For SeanD, I've not said that Jerusalem was the only location that Christ intended to judge in the AD 70 era. It wasn't. Paul on Mars Hill warned the Athenians that "...He hath appointed a day, in the which he IS *ABOUT TO* JUDGE THE WORLD in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained..." (Acts 17:31). This was more than just Jerusalem facing judgment; it was judgment that was worldwide in scope in the fast-approaching AD 70 era. Likewise in Revelation 3:10, Christ told the church at Philadelphia that "...I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which IS *ABOUT TO* COME UPON ALL THE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Again - judgment worldwide in scope that was soon to come to pass back then, followed by Christ's BODILY return to the Mount of Olives - His parousia.
                  70 AD war is not a worldwide judgement. When did this worldwide judgement take place? Jesus said he would "keep them" from this judgement, and if the futurist is correct, then he kept his word. If preterism is true, then he lied. If this worldwide judgement happened in 70 AD, how did Jesus keep them from it? Did he rapture them?

                  And, again, the sense of urgency is explained by Peter -- a "thousand years is as a day to the Lord." In God's time, it's been just two days since.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    SeanD, there were many other wars and notable natural disasters taking place around the globe that we have recorded for us in the years leading up to the AD 66-70 war between Rome and Judea. Do you need a list of these? They are many and varied, and quite a few recorded for us in scripture as already beginning to take place back then. Jesus called these "the BEGINNING of sorrows", even BEFORE the Great Tribulation cranked up in AD 66. That AD 66 year was when Jerusalem was surrounded by the Zealots' armies and Cestius Gallus' Roman army facing off against one another, as Luke 21:20 foretold. The believers heeded Christ's warning, and recognized that AD 66 beginning conflict between armies at Jerusalem as the event Christ had predicted for the start of the Great Tribulation period. Somewhere around 1-1/4 million (according to the AD 66 Jerusalem census record compared to extant casualty lists) obeyed Christ's warning to flee Jerusalem and Judea, and fled to Pella and other regions to wait out the war.

                    Jesus once prayed that the disciples NOT be taken out of the world, but that they would be kept from the evil one (Satan). So, even with judgement on the whole world swirling all around God's saints in those days, if God made a promise to some of them to keep them from being affected by it directly, that is a promise He can and did fulfill for those particular faithful ones in the Philadelphia church. He did NOT translate and rapture them to heaven, since there is no such promise of a translation-type of change for the living that has been made for anyone. Only the saints who had DIED before Christ's AD 70 bodily return were resurrected and raptured to heaven at that time. The rapture promise was for THEM - not for us - because at Christ's THIRD coming in our future, I believe He will come to stay and completely purify human evil from this world for the resurrected saints to inhabit it. No further need for resurrected saints to be raptured off the planet at that point.

                    Peter's "thousand years as one day" - I repeat - is to emphasize that God can fulfill a prophecy made one day in advance, (such as the writing on the wall for Belshazzar, fulfilled that same night), or a prophecy made a literal 1,000 years in advance (such as Rev. 20's literal 1,000 years of Satan's binding that ended with the First Resurrection in AD 33.) He is faithful to keep His promises, regardless of how long the prophesied period was said to be. You keep wanting to make time a meaningless, irrelevant thing for God, when He was constantly fulfilling prophecies "in due time", or "when the days were accomplished". The urgency of Revelation's prophecies for the first-century saints was very real indeed, with Christ's AD 70 bodily return only 3 years away from Peter's and some of Paul's epistles.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
                      Darfius, You are wildly flinging out judgment right and left without even knowing what position I hold concerning God's current and future dealings with men. I do indeed agree with you that the world at large is ripe for judgment in this present time. It has indeed had a couple thousand years to conform to Christ's image, but has generally grown in open rebellion against God's character and laws, which WILL be brought to account.
                      We are in a public forum discussing things that matter more than nearly anything else. Since you are attempting to lead people astray as a false prophet, it is my duty to at least call you out on it. It's unfortunate that you are more concerned with your injured feelings/pride than the salvation of your so-called brothers and sisters, but I do not share your delusion.

                      Scripture Verse: James 3

                      1 Not many of you should become teachers [certainly not women], my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      We are indeed "poised to drink of the cup of His righteous wrath". A river of blood from the murder of the unborn cries out to God from the sewers and trash dumps of the world. The world cannot flout God's laws concerning marriage between one man and one woman without calling down judgment on our heads. And I believe the scripture's patterns of the 7 total millennia of fallen man's history on this planet show us just when God's coming judgment will fall. As I said in reply #35 above, the transition from the ending of the 6th millennium into the 7th millennium will come soon by 2033 (two thousand years from Christ's resurrection in AD 33 at the close of the Rev. 20 millennium). This is GOD'S Y2K date coming in 2033.
                      Your "theology" is nonsensical. Judgment already came but judgment is coming. People resurrected to mortal bodies were really given glorified bodies even before Jesus who was the firstfruits from the dead, even little children who were presumably stuck as children. It's a shame that your husband has abdicated his responsibility to check your insane ramblings, but I do not intend to be derelict of my duty to do so in public. That is not to say that I enjoy hurting your feelings, but adjusting to and overcoming a fallen world means our feelings can either be hurt gradually day by day or in sudden instances when our unrepented sins bring us all at once into verbal, physical or spiritual judgment, and God grant that this judgment wakes us up from our moral slumber.

                      God has ever put a superabundant blessing on the "6th" period of things in scripture (the 6th day, the 6th year, etc). We cannot deny that the world's prosperity has surged exponentially in this 6th millennium, ever since the ending of the so-called "Dark Ages" . So much of that blessing has become warped into serving the base desires of sinful men. But look for the entire world to implode by the ending of this 6th millennium, and pass into the 7th as a type of "Sabbath" millennium beginning in 2033. This, I believe, is when God will squash the mad pursuit of pleasure and rebellion against Him, and force the world to "be still and know that I am God". Apparently all He has to do to accomplish this is to allow something like the Covid19 virus to materialize, for example.
                      The virus is being used to erect global government on the ashes of nation states that are crumbling due to the artificially collapsed economies. That is the exact opposite of God "squashing the mad pursuit of pleasure and rebellion against Him." He divvied the nations out at Babel with the intention of precluding just such a state of things that the enemy is bringing about after ages of careful planning. Babel is being reversed. Nothing man plans to do shall be impossible for him.

                      God's Spirit does its best work when believers are under duress and/or persecution. When He wants to bring His people close to Himself, He brings them into the wilderness and makes them dependent upon Him for their very survival with daily bread and water. None of this will be a fulfillment of the prophecies that Revelation listed, which already took place at times that were then "AT HAND" to them in the first century. Instead, these will be the fulfillment of the "sealed up" prophecies which the 7 thunders uttered in Revelation 10:4, and which John did not write down for that generation, since they were intended for times future to AD 70 - such as now.
                      Your insistence that the time markers be taken in a woodenly literal sense cannot be taken seriously since you have twisted the Scriptures to fit your insane theology via suggesting such absurdities as angels being "Idumean" officers, Jerusalem being on the Euphrates, a Zealot who played dress up for two weeks being the man of sin, Paul not dying when he was stoned to death, Jonah breathing oxygen while being in a whale for three days and misapplying "brightness of his coming" to the Antichrist instead of Jesus, who shall destroy the Antichrist "with the brightness of His coming."

                      (By the way, you are conflating the verses about the Man of Lawlessness with the verses describing the Beast empire. Two different contexts. He was only one minor character PART of the Beast's features. Scripture never says he was the Beast itself, per se. You have blown up the Man of Lawlessness's activities into a consummately evil super-hero of sorts, when Paul said that the "brightness of his coming" on the scene of history was not destined to last very long at all, once He tried to elevate himself. He was only a "flash in the pan" as it were, that served mainly as a time marker for the believers to recognize the AD 66 beginning of the Great Tribulation.)
                      The Antichrist is the culmination of Satan's rebellion which has existed since the garden of Eden, more on that here: https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...the-antichrist

                      As for the Temple which Christ established with Himself as the "Chief Cornerstone", I would say with Paul, "WHAT? Know ye not that your bodies are the Temple of the living God? Which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" As believers are added into God's kingdom, we are being "built up an holy temple unto the Lord". As a vibrantly mobile Temple with the Spirit residing in each of us, we are a vast improvement over the stationary, physical Temple which God destined for destruction in that first-century generation. Don't you recognize the current Temple as the anti-type fulfillment of the OT type? Why do you think God would revert to the Old Temple system again, when the New is so much better? We need no more physical temple with priests or high priests, since we all have access by One Man unto the Father.
                      High and mighty "spiritual" speak. We walked with God phsyically in Eden and we shall do so again, by God's grace. It is true that His Spirit indwells some of us at present, but the Jews would have had no conception of God "dwelling" among us merely "in spirit". It is the earth that the meek shall inherit, not some misty "heaven".

                      The temple was always meant to be the reestablishment of Eden, the place where we could meet with God, not merely on an individual level via the Spirit, but as a corporate body (even as a family). The present state of things where believers meet haphazardly in private homes or so-called "churches" (synagogues) was not God's intention. There was meant to be a physical place on Earth where we could go to meet with Him and bring Him gifts of thankfulness, praise, obedience and contrition which, far from dishonoring Christ's sacrifice on our behalf, honors it and glorifies it with the obedience that sacrifice was meant to bring about in us. He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it.

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                      • #41
                        Darfius, you are really all over the place with contradictions. You say that "judgment already came, but judgment is coming". I have just written THE VERY SAME THING in my comments above. Yet you say this is "nonsensical". This is contradictory to say the least.

                        I have JUST WRITTEN above that PHYSICALLY we shall walk with God again on this earth, just as you have also said above. (Which is at the close of the 7th millennium, which starts in 2033.) Yet you are charging me with "high and mighty 'spiritual' speak" for saying the same thing you are on this point. This is again contradictory. Scripture tells us that God did not create this world in vain, but He "formed it to be inhabited". Meaning resurrected saints will still have this world in which we can dwell, even after the final resurrection in our future.

                        You are presuming that I am writing with an attitude of pride. Only God can know if that is true or not. "The righteous are bold as a lion", we are told. Try not to mistake boldness for pride, Darfius. I would never think of charging you with this accusation, no matter how insistent you may be with expressing your views. I post on many other Christian forums, and have been excoriated by some in all the camps of the Full Preterists, Partial Preterists, Premillennial Dispensationalists, etc. I have a very thick hide, and ridicule and name-calling does not hurt my feelings. Nine years ago I had to lay everything I ever was taught from scripture by various teachers on the altar, and offer it back to God. If what I was taught was truth, I hold fast to it. If it was false, I want no further part of it.

                        I find it curiously odd that you are charging me with using "wooden literalism" in my interpretations of the time markers in Revelation. Odd, because it is usually the FULL PRETERIST who accuses the Futurist of doing this very thing.

                        I once used to believe as you do about the "brightness of his coming" in II Thess. 2 being Christ's coming return that would slay the Man of Lawlessness. If you look more carefully at the sentence structure, it can't possibly be *Christ's* coming discussed there, because the very same sentence concludes with "WHOSE COMING IS AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN, with all power, and signs, and LYING WONDERS." Christ does not lie, and He does not come imitating Satan. So the particular referent for the "coming" there under discussion has to be instead the brightness of the *Man of Lawlessness's* coming on the scene, with power, signs, and lying wonders that were all snuffed out along with his death. And Christ's bodily return was not said to take place at the same time when the Man of Lawlessness would die.

                        Christ did indeed come to fulfill the Law. That Law INCLUDED His promise to cast away the house that had His name given to it, if the children of Israel failed to remain faithful. The "Song of Moses" was the song of this judgment taught to God's ethnic people, that would be fulfilled in their latter days. That song of Moses was finally sung back in the first century when the desolated temple structure and the outdated priesthood system met its physical end in the close of AD 70. It would never be found again, just like the great stone thrown by the angel into the sea, and just like the fig tree that Christ cursed, saying "no man eat fruit of thee hereafter forever."

                        The Lord Jesus Himself is said to be the Temple of the New Jerusalem. Wherever His presence is, there the Temple is. Even when two or more are gathered together on the internet in His name. For sacrifices, we offer our bodies as "living sacrifices" unto Him. One day in the final resurrection, we will behold Him face to face - and the Temple will be complete in the fullest sense.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
                          SeanD, there were many other wars and notable natural disasters taking place around the globe that we have recorded for us in the years leading up to the AD 66-70 war between Rome and Judea. Do you need a list of these? They are many and varied, and quite a few recorded for us in scripture as already beginning to take place back then. Jesus called these "the BEGINNING of sorrows", even BEFORE the Great Tribulation cranked up in AD 66. That AD 66 year was when Jerusalem was surrounded by the Zealots' armies and Cestius Gallus' Roman army facing off against one another, as Luke 21:20 foretold. The believers heeded Christ's warning, and recognized that AD 66 beginning conflict between armies at Jerusalem as the event Christ had predicted for the start of the Great Tribulation period. Somewhere around 1-1/4 million (according to the AD 66 Jerusalem census record compared to extant casualty lists) obeyed Christ's warning to flee Jerusalem and Judea, and fled to Pella and other regions to wait out the war.

                          Jesus once prayed that the disciples NOT be taken out of the world, but that they would be kept from the evil one (Satan). So, even with judgement on the whole world swirling all around God's saints in those days, if God made a promise to some of them to keep them from being affected by it directly, that is a promise He can and did fulfill for those particular faithful ones in the Philadelphia church. He did NOT translate and rapture them to heaven, since there is no such promise of a translation-type of change for the living that has been made for anyone. Only the saints who had DIED before Christ's AD 70 bodily return were resurrected and raptured to heaven at that time. The rapture promise was for THEM - not for us - because at Christ's THIRD coming in our future, I believe He will come to stay and completely purify human evil from this world for the resurrected saints to inhabit it. No further need for resurrected saints to be raptured off the planet at that point.

                          Peter's "thousand years as one day" - I repeat - is to emphasize that God can fulfill a prophecy made one day in advance, (such as the writing on the wall for Belshazzar, fulfilled that same night), or a prophecy made a literal 1,000 years in advance (such as Rev. 20's literal 1,000 years of Satan's binding that ended with the First Resurrection in AD 33.) He is faithful to keep His promises, regardless of how long the prophesied period was said to be. You keep wanting to make time a meaningless, irrelevant thing for God, when He was constantly fulfilling prophecies "in due time", or "when the days were accomplished". The urgency of Revelation's prophecies for the first-century saints was very real indeed, with Christ's AD 70 bodily return only 3 years away from Peter's and some of Paul's epistles.

                          First of all, everything, your entire premise, is predicated on the belief (which is erroneous and easy to prove erroneous) that Rev was written before 70 AD. What if it was written after 70 AD?

                          With that aside, Jesus said you will HEAR of these things. I never understood how the preterist interprets that in the first century. How did the Christians back then "hear" about all these things? Was he only speaking to Christians in Jerusalem? What about the Christians scattered throughout the Mediterranean?

                          Jesus didn't say there would a A war, AN earthquake, A famine, A pestilence. These were plural. Earthquakes (plural) in diverse places, famines (plural), pestilences (plural). And he said you will HEAR of these things, and the culmination of these things would be troubling to all of mankind (as indicated by Luke). How did Christians in Jerusalem hear about all these earthquakes in diverse places and things occurring around the world?

                          And as I said before, your interpretation of Peter is just wrong because you're ignoring the whole context of that chapter. The context was "why isn't the Lord returning," "there will be scoffers who scoff at this," and to "take heart, God is not being slack because to him a thousand years is like a day.," meaning time is irrelevant to God and He's not bound by our sense of time. So what seems like a delay to us is not a delay to God, even if it takes thousands of years. I don't know why you keep acting like that isn't the context when anyone can read 2 Peter 3 and see clearly that it is.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                            Where were the "armies of heaven" that attended Christ's 2nd coming?
                            Besieging Jerusalem. Christ's reference to "coming on the clouds with power" is steeped in the Old Testament prophecies where, e.g., the Assyrians and Babylonians were used to carry out God's will.
                            What was Nero's "mark" that required acceptance to participate in the economy and was placed in the right hand or forehead?
                            Sacrifice to the gods, used for the next 250 years as a litmus test to avoid persecution. It's very likely a mistake to take such a symbol-laden text literally.
                            Who was Nero's false prophet and when were the two of them "tossed alive" into the lake of fire?
                            Not sure who the false prophet was. They were tossed into the lake of fire upon bodily death (unlike the rest of humanity, they don't get to sleep until Christ returns to judge the living and the dead).
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              I'm ready today.

                              Just sayin.
                              I try to be ready every day. Fortunately, there seems to be no requirement that we get the interpretation of Revelation correct. I'm much more focused on obeying the "greatest commandment" and the "one which is like unto" it.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                              • #45
                                Errr, not exactly SeanD...my whole premise is based upon the ENTIRETY of scripture - not just the pre-AD 70 dating for Revelation's composition (for which there is ample internal proof if you need me to list it).

                                That whole list of earthquakes, famines, pestilences, sea and waves roaring, fearful sights and great signs from heaven preceding Christ's return in Luke 21...ALL of those things - bar none - Christ said were "ABOUT TO COME TO PASS" upon the disciples' generation (Luke 21:36). That's why Christ told THEM to watch and take heed to themselves, so that THEY could ESCAPE those things that were "ABOUT TO COME TO PASS" before His return. For the student of first-century historical events, there is a plethora of recorded first-century wars (plural), famines (plural), pestilences (plural), earthquakes (plural), great signs (plural), etc. But even BEFORE all those things that were about to come to pass back then, the disciples would have hands laid on them and be delivered to the Jewish synagogues, into prisons, and put on trial before councils (the Sanhedrin) and kings and rulers (like Paul before the high priest Ananias and Stephen before Caiphas and Annas).

                                You and I, SeanD, are not about to be brought before the no-longer-existing Sanhedrin council or a high priest to be cast into prison by them. This was prophecy dedicated to the disciples of the first century and everything they would endure during those early persecutions, of which Acts enumerates several for us.

                                You express some doubt as to just how the disciples would have been able to "hear" about all those things coming to pass. This is no more a wonder than figuring out how the epistles written in scripture were circulated among the early church. The 7 churches mentioned in Revelation were located in a more or less circular "mail route", through which the writings of the apostles could be distributed. Additionally, every feast day of Jerusalem would see millions of travelers coming from all points of the compass and other nations to celebrate in Jerusalem. News got around. They didn't need the internet.

                                Moreover, you may or may not know of Seneca the Younger's series of written work "Naturales Quaestiones", with the 6th volume in particular entitled "Concerning Earthquakes". Seismic activity in divers places was definitely on the rise, and Seneca released that volume around AD 65 after the AD 62 earthquake near Pompeii, to allay the fears of those who thought they should immigrate to safer locations to avoid the numerous earthquakes taking place during those turbulent decades. "One place is as safe or as vulnerable as another", was the upshot of Seneca's advice to them.

                                Herculaneum on the coast (with Vesuvius in the background) was then experiencing a fluctuating rise and fall of the ground level of the coastline - varying about 16'. This was a continuous problem, serious enough that they had to abandon and seal up the first floor of buildings, and construct a sea wall high enough to withstand "the sea and the waves roaring" that Christ in Luke 21:25,36 had predicted would "soon come to pass". The very day of the AD 62 earthquake near Pompeii and Herculaneum, a tsunami wave from the epicenter swept across the sea and drowned 300 Alexandrian ships in the Roman Ostia harbor - Rome's entire grain supply for that year. Riots ensued, with Nero having to open the grain surplus warehouses to appease the public panic (an example of "Men's hearts failing them for fear") .

                                Because Christ had been so specific about these events that were soon to come to pass just prior to His second coming, as the years progressed with these events taking place, and He still had not yet returned...THIS was the reason scoffers arose and started mocking the disciples back then during those last days of the nation of Israel. Peter's statement written around AD 67 about the "thousand years as one day" meant that Christ's promises about His soon coming in that generation would certainly be fulfilled, regardless of whether it was taking longer than they expected. Because a prophecy God uttered just one day before the event was as sure as a prophecy uttered a thousand years in advance.
                                Last edited by 3 Resurrections; 07-23-2021, 04:33 PM.

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