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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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  • #46
    Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
    Darfius, you are really all over the place with contradictions. You say that "judgment already came, but judgment is coming". I have just written THE VERY SAME THING in my comments above. Yet you say this is "nonsensical". This is contradictory to say the least.
    "Don't hate, equivocate" seems to be your mantra. I said and say that judgment came upon the Jews and will soon come upon the Gentiles. You say worldwide judgment came secretly in the past and will come again devoid of any organized agency in the near future, apparently with the end result that we will need to learn to be self-sufficient. That is a far cry from the reality of the hell pit that is about to open and make men seek death but be unable to find it (another reality in Revelation you ignore).

    I have JUST WRITTEN above that PHYSICALLY we shall walk with God again on this earth, just as you have also said above. (Which is at the close of the 7th millennium, which starts in 2033.) Yet you are charging me with "high and mighty 'spiritual' speak" for saying the same thing you are on this point. This is again contradictory. Scripture tells us that God did not create this world in vain, but He "formed it to be inhabited". Meaning resurrected saints will still have this world in which we can dwell, even after the final resurrection in our future.
    It matters WHEN we shall walk with God and WHERE and not just physically but "in spirit and in truth." Your pet theory, which is about glorifying you and little else, misleads people DANGEROUSLY about when these earth shattering events will occur, to what purpose and in what way we can seek shelter in the Living One.

    You are presuming that I am writing with an attitude of pride. Only God can know if that is true or not. "The righteous are bold as a lion", we are told. Try not to mistake boldness for pride, Darfius. I would never think of charging you with this accusation, no matter how insistent you may be with expressing your views. I post on many other Christian forums, and have been excoriated by some in all the camps of the Full Preterists, Partial Preterists, Premillennial Dispensationalists, etc. I have a very thick hide, and ridicule and name-calling does not hurt my feelings. Nine years ago I had to lay everything I ever was taught from scripture by various teachers on the altar, and offer it back to God. If what I was taught was truth, I hold fast to it. If it was false, I want no further part of it.
    Christ, who is God, told us we could judge people by their fruit. You refuse correction, persist in absurdities, do not know your place and simply ignore what you cannot twist out of context. How did Jonah breathe inside of the whale for three days? Be specific or recant your foolishness.

    I find it curiously odd that you are charging me with using "wooden literalism" in my interpretations of the time markers in Revelation. Odd, because it is usually the FULL PRETERIST who accuses the Futurist of doing this very thing.
    "Full preterists" believe in global events happening without witnesses just like you, namely the resurrection. Double fulfillment handles the so-called time markers quite handily, as was God's intent, most importantly. But no amount of special pleading will make an Idumean an angel or a Zealot playing dress up the Antichrist.

    I once used to believe as you do about the "brightness of his coming" in II Thess. 2 being Christ's coming return that would slay the Man of Lawlessness. If you look more carefully at the sentence structure, it can't possibly be *Christ's* coming discussed there, because the very same sentence concludes with "WHOSE COMING IS AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN, with all power, and signs, and LYING WONDERS." Christ does not lie, and He does not come imitating Satan. So the particular referent for the "coming" there under discussion has to be instead the brightness of the *Man of Lawlessness's* coming on the scene, with power, signs, and lying wonders that were all snuffed out along with his death. And Christ's bodily return was not said to take place at the same time when the Man of Lawlessness would die.
    Scripture Verse: 2 Thessalonians 2

    2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

    5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

    © Copyright Original Source



    As usual once actual Scripture is consulted, your lies and folly are exposed several times over.

    1. Hebrew parallelism makes it clear that Jesus will both "overthrow" the Antichrist "with the breath of his mouth" and "destroy" the Antichrist "by the splendor of his coming." We know it's the Antichrist who is "destroyed" because earlier he is called "the man doomed to destruction." Also, a man playing dress up did not have "splendor" in his coming, which by the way is the Greek word "parousia".
    2. Both Christ and the Antichrist are said to have a "parousia" because one is the twisted mirror of the other, so because One had an Advent (and will have another), so will the other.
    3. The ambiguity of the shared language is intentional to symbolize the cosmic battle between Christ and Antichrist, a method also used quite significantly in Daniel:

    Scripture Verse: Daniel 9

    25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Notice the ambiguity about what "ruler" is being spoken of when. Notice how both the Anointed One and the one who sets up the abomination of desolation will be killed, though in very different manners and to very different ends. Who will confirm "a covenant?" Apparently both. The ambiguity is intentional.

    Also notice how the destruction of the temple is mentioned but later an abomination is set up in the temple. That's because the city and the temple are rebuilt "in times of trouble" (Jacob's trouble = Tribulation).

    There are other ways Daniel contributes to the full picture:

    Scripture Verse: Daniel 7

    11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.

    © Copyright Original Source



    The "little horn" is one of the titles of the Antichrist as I covered in my thread of the same title (part of the correction you are refusing). Notice he is "destroyed" by "blazing fire" which echoes his fate in both the Thessalonian passage and Revelation 19. See how the Bible interprets itself and we do not require some uppity woman to uppity womansplain for us?

    Scripture Verse: Isaiah 11

    He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes,
    or decide by what he hears with his ears;
    4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
    with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
    He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
    with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. [Christ will slay/destroy "that wicked one" with "the breath of His mouth" and "the splendor of His coming".]

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Daniel 7

    As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.

    ...

    24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.[3 and a half years, the time period in Revelation]

    26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’

    © Copyright Original Source



    Originally posted by 3 Resurrections
    And Christ's bodily return was not said to take place at the same time when the Man of Lawlessness would die
    See how that's been disproven multiple ways by now? The same language is even used: destroyed, the "coming" of the Ancient of Days. As a cherry on top, your "man of sin" candidate didn't oppress "the saints" or reign for three and a half years. If you're going to subvert God's word, you should at least have some idea what you're talking about.

    And since you're such a big fan of time texts, explain why the saints aren't ruling the earth the same way these beast empires did if Jesus has already "come". Verse 27 says "THEN", WHEN the Antichrist/little horn is destroyed is WHEN they inherit the kingdom.

    Two more points regarding the Thessalonians passage: 4. The Antichrist/man of sin is said to carry out his mission to "serve the lie". AT THE SAME TIME, God sends a "powerful delusion" to deceive everyone who believes "the lie", tying the Antichrist directly with this time of "powerful delusion." When was this time of "powerful delusion", what was the powerful delusion and in what way did your Zealot playing dress up for two weeks "serve" it? Allow me to mansplain it for you: https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...9585-the-elect

    5. The Antichrist/man of sin is said to proclaim himself God IN GOD'S TEMPLE. According to you, this happened in 66 AD, LONG AFTER Christ came and allegedly "became the only Temple" ACCORDING TO YOU. Why would Paul under inspiration of God call a worthless building "God's temple" rather than "the building falsely called God's temple?" Isn't that confusing? Is God a God of confusion? Or is the simplest and best explanation that you are running your mouth when you should remain silent "as is the practice in all the churches" to quote another of Paul's sayings.

    Christ did indeed come to fulfill the Law. That Law INCLUDED His promise to cast away the house that had His name given to it, if the children of Israel failed to remain faithful. The "Song of Moses" was the song of this judgment taught to God's ethnic people, that would be fulfilled in their latter days. That song of Moses was finally sung back in the first century when the desolated temple structure and the outdated priesthood system met its physical end in the close of AD 70. It would never be found again, just like the great stone thrown by the angel into the sea, and just like the fig tree that Christ cursed, saying "no man eat fruit of thee hereafter forever."
    Oh boy. So much wrong here. Moses predicted that the Israelites would be cast away AND BROUGHT BACK. Both. In that order.

    Scripture Verse: Deuteronomy 30

    1 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 7 The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. 8 You will again obey the Lord and follow all his commands I am giving you today. 9 Then the Lord your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors, 10 if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

    11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

    © Copyright Original Source



    1. The ten Northern tribes of Israel were "scattered" before the Southern tribes of Judah, Benjamin and some of Levi and ONLY THE SOUTHERN TRIBES CAME BACK FROM BABYLON. That is CLEARLY not a fulfillment of the MANY prophecies in the Bible of a "glorious" regathering" of ALL ISRAEL. The return from Babylon was a TYPE and SYMBOL of the TRUE fulfillment. Mixing types with the real deal is your problem and the problem of the preterists who care more about man's opinion than God's.
    2. Babylon is NOT "the most distant land under the heavens". It wasn't even the most distant land the Jews were aware of (they knew of Spain and China).
    3. The Jews who returned from Babylon numbered a few tens of thousands and never grew "more prosperous" or "more numerous" than Israel at the projected height of its ancient population:

    The Torah contains a number of statements as to the number of (adult, male) Hebrews that left Egypt, the descendants of the seventy sons and grandsons of Jacob who took up their residence in that country. Altogether, including Levites, the number given is 611,730. For non-Levites, this represents men fit for military service, i.e. between twenty and sixty years of age; among the Levites the relevant number is those obligated in temple service (males between twenty and fifty years of age). This would imply a population of about 3,000,000. The Census of David is said to have recorded 1,300,000 males over twenty years of age, which would imply a population of over 5,000,000. The number of exiles who returned from Babylon is given at 42,360. Tacitus declares that Jerusalem at its fall contained 600,000 persons; Josephus, that there were as many as 1,100,000 slain in the destruction of Jerusalem in CE 70, along with 97,000 who were sold as slaves. However, Josephus also qualifies this count, noting that Jerusalem was besieged during the Passover. The majority of the 1,197,000 would not have been residents of the city, but rather were visiting for the festival. These appear (writes Jacobs)[2] to be all the figures accessible for ancient times, and their trustworthiness is a matter of dispute. 1,100,000 is comparable to the population of the largest cities that existed anywhere in the world before the 19th century, but geographically the Old City of Jerusalem is just a few per cent the size of such cities as ancient Rome, Constantinople, Edo period Tokyo and Han Dynasty Xi'an. The difficulties of commissariat in the Sinai desert for such a number as 3,000,000 have been pointed out by John William Colenso
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...on_comparisons

    Of course I think Wiki is lowballing:

    Scripture Verse: 2 Chronicles 17

    12 Jehoshaphat became more and more powerful; he built forts and store cities in Judah 13 and had large supplies in the towns of Judah. He also kept experienced fighting men in Jerusalem. 14 Their enrollment by families was as follows:

    From Judah, commanders of units of 1,000:
    Adnah the commander, with 300,000 fighting men;
    15 next, Jehohanan the commander, with 280,000;
    16 next, Amasiah son of Zikri, who volunteered himself for the service of the Lord, with 200,000.
    17 From Benjamin:
    Eliada, a valiant soldier, with 200,000 men armed with bows and shields;
    18 next, Jehozabad, with 180,000 men armed for battle.



    19 These were the men who served the king, besides those he stationed in the fortified cities throughout Judah.

    © Copyright Original Source



    That's over one million fighting age men just in the two Southern tribes. Projecting to the other tribes has numbers which at least match the modern day figure of roughly 14 million (allegedly). Speaking of which, why do the Jews still exist in your silly philosophy? Isn't God done with them? Why would He make them more prosperous and numerous now after having scattered them and wiped His hands of them? That don't make a lick o' sense. Which brings me to why I included Deuteronomy 30:11-14:

    Scripture Verse: Romans 10

    5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

    © Copyright Original Source



    Paul quotes Moses about the scattering and regathering HERE AT THE BEGINNING of his argument about why God HAS NOT ABANDONED THE JEWS which culminates in Romans 11 where he says one day the Gentiles will be called to account in the same way the Jews were. Proving that the regathering IN VIEW was the regathering "at the end of the age" and not the trickle from Babylon in the time before Christ.

    As another cherry on top (ooh sticky sweet), NOTE how Moses speaks of "crossing the sea" while Paul speaks of "descending into the deep" (another word for the sea in Scripture) and EQUATES IT TO GOING DOWN TO THE ABODE OF THE DEAD. Proving definitively that when Jonah spoke of crying out to God "from the midst of the sea", he meant from the abode of the dead. He died, lil mama, and he resurrected to a MORTAL BODY, not a "glorified one." Lay your pet theory to rest before it seeks death and can't find it (like in Revelation that you can't explain).

    The Lord Jesus Himself is said to be the Temple of the New Jerusalem. Wherever His presence is, there the Temple is. Even when two or more are gathered together on the internet in His name. For sacrifices, we offer our bodies as "living sacrifices" unto Him. One day in the final resurrection, we will behold Him face to face - and the Temple will be complete in the fullest sense.
    Nope. Jesus is only called the Temple AFTER THE HEAVENLY JERUSALEM comes to earth, which I have no doubt you DO NOT believe has happened yet:

    Scripture Verse: Revelation 21

    9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17 The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits thick. 18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.

    22I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Clearly the sun and moon are still a'shinin', so this hasn't happened yet.

    AND FOR ANOTHER CHERRY ON TOP (DIABEETUS), notice in verses 24-26 OFFERINGS ARE STILL BROUGHT TO GOD.

    If you are still prideful and foolish and sinful enough to respond after this thrashing, I do not feel inclined to waste any more time or energy on you, though of course I will follow as the Spirit leads. I hope "having the last word" is not a temptation you cannot overcome.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Besieging Jerusalem. Christ's reference to "coming on the clouds with power" is steeped in the Old Testament prophecies where, e.g., the Assyrians and Babylonians were used to carry out God's will.
      Thanks for citing specific Scripture like always. A man of unimpeachable integrity and zeal for God's word.

      Roman soldiers were not and could not have been "the armies of heaven". Nor was the phrase "armies of heaven" ever applied to "the Assyrians and Babylonians".

      Sacrifice to the gods, used for the next 250 years as a litmus test to avoid persecution. It's very likely a mistake to take such a symbol-laden text literally.
      "a litmus test to avoid persecution" was not required to participate in the economy. Unsurprisingly since you're clearly not trying, it looks like you're not even trying. It's very likely a mistake to ignore clear instructions when the symbols in the symbol-laden text are all explained in other parts of the Bible and even if they were not it would not follow that the interpretation could be pin-the-tail-on-the-absurdity at our own discretion. "Private interpretation" is explicitly condemned in the Scripture you ignore and never cite.

      Not sure who the false prophet was. They were tossed into the lake of fire upon bodily death (unlike the rest of humanity, they don't get to sleep until Christ returns to judge the living and the dead).
      Yeah, that's not what it says. It says "tossed alive" into the lake of fire. At this point you are ignoring the plain meaning of the text with no symbolism whatsoever. And how can you be unsure who the false prophet was when he "caused all" to worship the beast and "called fire down out of heaven"? Shouldn't that be obvious? Wouldn't many have seen that and testified to it?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        I try to be ready every day. Fortunately, there seems to be no requirement that we get the interpretation of Revelation correct. I'm much more focused on obeying the "greatest commandment" and the "one which is like unto" it.
        Those who don't give two rat poops about the truth couldn't possibly obey "the greatest commandment" or "the one which is like unto it". Their place is in the lake of fire, but not tossed there alive like the beast and the false prophet.

        Comment


        • #49
          Darfius, I thoroughly enjoy participating in a lively exchange between two believers who happen to have dissenting views of what scripture's intent was. You know, an "iron sharpening iron" kind of thing, which is always beneficial to both concerned. Apparently, it seems you do not view it in that light, but are regarding my comments as an attack on you personally and those of your gender. Far from it. Did you not get the ancient bulletin fulfilled in Acts about God pouring out His Spirit on all flesh, handmaidens included, so that they could prophesy back then? If your views against Preterism (and women) were true, then they should be producing the fruit of "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance."

          I did not know peace, faith, and joy about eschatological matters until I first encountered Preterism some nine years ago. My faith in a predestinating God with control over His universe has grown exponentially since then, as I see how He fulfilled every word He spoke, and in the exact time frame in which He promised to fulfill them - even in the first century. My joy in discovering these truths is something irrepressible in me. I long to share it with others across the spectrum of those who differ in these views , so that they, too, can share this great confidence in a promise-keeping God.

          Yes, even though I see the disintegration of this country and world affairs at present, leading to its coming judgment in the very near future, I can still trace the overall pattern that God has been building over the past 6 ages of human history - always based on a prevailing uphill trajectory over those ages - with God eventually purifying this world and purging it of every type of evil at the close of the last, 7th age.

          This optimistic pattern of incremental growth for God's kingdom over the ages has breathed hope throughout scripture, (leaven, the mustard seed, Daniel's growing rock, the unending increase of God's kingdom and peace). This pattern is a totally contradictory mindset to the pessimistic, Premillennial (and sorry to say - part of the Calvinistic) upbringing that I was taught since infancy; the theory that humanity and the globe itself are all trending downward, and at their conclusion will all plummet down to hell in a handbasket. My God is a God of life, growth, renovation, and renewal. He takes the disastrous mess that the choices of fallen man repeatedly create for himself, and in spite of that, His abiding Spirit infuses new, eternal life into His children - Daniel's growing rock that in time will eventually fill the earth. My confidence is in GOD and His Spirit who will accomplish this - NOT in mankind itself.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
            Darfius, I thoroughly enjoy participating in a lively exchange between two believers who happen to have dissenting views of what scripture's intent was. You know, an "iron sharpening iron" kind of thing, which is always beneficial to both concerned. Apparently, it seems you do not view it in that light, but are regarding my comments as an attack on you personally and those of your gender. Far from it. Did you not get the ancient bulletin fulfilled in Acts about God pouring out His Spirit on all flesh, handmaidens included, so that they could prophesy back then? If your views against Preterism (and women) were true, then they should be producing the fruit of "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance."
            That is the source of some of the confusion here, 3 Resurrections. This is not "a lively exchange between two believers who happen to have dissenting views of what Scripture's intent was". We are discussing whether or not a hell pit will open soon and torment everyone who is not right with God in the specific ways they need to be right with God that Revelation details. In other words, there are very real consequences resulting from which of us is right. And "iron sharpening iron" assumes that both parties genuinely have good intentions and at any rate applies to interpersonal conditions. This is a public forum, not interpersonal conditions.

            I got the bulletin about handmaidens "prophesying", but I think you missed the part that mentioned the conditions under which they should prophesy:

            Scripture Verse: 1 Corinthians 11

            2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you. 3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

            7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

            13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.

            © Copyright Original Source



            By the way, are you calling your interpretation of Scripture prophecy? Even if it is, why are you not covering your head? And this is an even worse situation than Paul was talking about. The women he was addressing were among other believers. You are in a public square.

            But even if it were prophecy, it does not follow that you would also have the interpretation of that prophecy. In fact, that's highly unlikely and would require you being blessed above all women and indeed most men (which I suspect is the appeal and why we go in circles):

            Scripture Verse: 1 Corinthians 14

            26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

            29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.

            34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

            36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.

            39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

            © Copyright Original Source



            Paul wrote this long after Christ had come you know. In fact, he wrote it by direct inspiration of Christ. So why do you feel so at liberty to flaunt it? That is what I am trying to convey to you. I would not waste time or space complaining about a state of affairs that only offended me personally. Your behavior is an affront to God Himself.

            I did not know peace, faith, and joy about eschatological matters until I first encountered Preterism some nine years ago. My faith in a predestinating God with control over His universe has grown exponentially since then, as I see how He fulfilled every word He spoke, and in the exact time frame in which He promised to fulfill them - even in the first century. My joy in discovering these truths is something irrepressible in me. I long to share it with others across the spectrum of those who differ in these views , so that they, too, can share this great confidence in a promise-keeping God.
            In short you are wrong, which of course your relative "peace, faith and joy" are not the objective metric to determine. But even if you were not wrong, it would not be your place to "share it with others across the spectrum". It would be your place to convince your husband and have him do that for you. But as has been covered elsewhere, your husband disagrees with you on this and so you've disregarded his authority to speak authoritatively with your head uncovered.

            You are a woman so I don't blame you too harshly for this, but for example you did not address any of the facts in my last post and instead have attempted to use shaming language ("regarding my comments as an attack on you personally") and emotional persuasion ("peace, faith, and joy"..."my joy in discovering these truths"..."long to share"...."share this great confidence") to give the impression you are making an actual argument. This is bad form and not how truth should be discussed. Truth is truth whether it gives you fuzzy feelings or not. The Bereans searched the Scriptures, not their emotional rolodex.

            Jonah died, resurrected into a mortal body and later died again. This alone invalidates your nonsense claims. It is your duty now to admit that, repent of your errors and serve God with obedience rather than lip service.

            And your so-called "time texts" have been dealt with several times over by now. Double fulfillment and "a thousand years are as a day." What's odd is that you admit human history will amount to 7,000 years but somehow still can't grasp how this connects to the 7 "day" creation week and the implication that the 2,000 years since Christ have been but two "days." Maybe more Scripture will help clarify it for you. Or maybe you'll ignore it again. Either way, duty dictates:

            Scripture Verse: Hosea 6


            “Come, let us return to the Lord.
            He has torn us to pieces
            but he will heal us;
            he has injured us
            but he will bind up our wounds.
            2After two days he will revive us; [after 2,000 years]
            on the third day he will restore us, [at the beginning of the third millennium since Christ]
            that we may live in his presence.
            3 Let us acknowledge the Lord; frf
            let us press on to acknowledge him.
            As surely as the sun rises,
            he will appear;
            he will come to us like the winter rains,
            like the spring rains that water the earth.”


            4 “What can I do with you, Ephraim?
            What can I do with you, Judah?
            Your love is like the morning mist,
            like the early dew that disappears.
            5 Therefore I cut you in pieces with my prophets,
            I killed you with the words of my mouth—
            then my judgments go forth like the sun.


            ....


            11 “Also for you, Judah,
            a harvest is appointed.


            Whenever I would restore the fortunes of my people,

            ...

            7:1 whenever I would heal Israel,
            the sins of Ephraim are exposed
            and the crimes of Samaria revealed.

            © Copyright Original Source



            Yes, even though I see the disintegration of this country and world affairs at present, leading to its coming judgment in the very near future, I can still trace the overall pattern that God has been building over the past 6 ages of human history - always based on a prevailing uphill trajectory over those ages - with God eventually purifying this world and purging it of every type of evil at the close of the last, 7th age.
            Huh? This was unclear gobbledygook.

            This optimistic pattern of incremental growth for God's kingdom over the ages has breathed hope throughout scripture, (leaven, the mustard seed, Daniel's growing rock, the unending increase of God's kingdom and peace). This pattern is a totally contradictory mindset to the pessimistic, Premillennial (and sorry to say - part of the Calvinistic) upbringing that I was taught since infancy; the theory that humanity and the globe itself are all trending downward, and at their conclusion will all plummet down to hell in a handbasket. My God is a God of life, growth, renovation, and renewal. He takes the disastrous mess that the choices of fallen man repeatedly create for himself, and in spite of that, His abiding Spirit infuses new, eternal life into His children - Daniel's growing rock that in time will eventually fill the earth. My confidence is in GOD and His Spirit who will accomplish this - NOT in mankind itself.
            I wonder if you were aware that "hell in a handbasket" is a verse in Scripture. I doubt it, since preterists tend to be quite ignorant of Scripture (and disregard what they do know if necessary), and since it puts the lie to your idea that things will generally get better in some nebulous way at some nebulous time:

            Scripture Verse: Zechariah 5

            I looked again, and there before me was a flying scroll.

            2 He asked me, “What do you see?”

            I answered, “I see a flying scroll, twenty cubits long and ten cubits wide.”

            3 And he said to me, “This is the curse that is going out over the whole land; for according to what it says on one side, every thief will be banished, and according to what it says on the other, everyone who swears falsely will be banished. 4 The Lord Almighty declares, ‘I will send it out, and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of anyone who swears falsely by my name. It will remain in that house and destroy it completely, both its timbers and its stones.’”

            5 Then the angel who was speaking to me came forward and said to me, “Look up and see what is appearing.”

            6 I asked, “What is it?”

            He replied, “It is a basket.” And he added, “This is the iniquity of the people throughout the land.”

            7 Then the cover of lead was raised, and there in the basket sat a woman! 8 He said, “This is wickedness,” and he pushed her back into the basket and pushed its lead cover down on it.

            9 Then I looked up—and there before me were two women, with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth.

            10 Where are they taking the basket?” I asked the angel who was speaking to me.

            11 He replied, “To the country of Babylonia to build a house for it. When the house is ready, the basket will be set there in its place.”

            © Copyright Original Source



            I have no idea how you would interpret "Babylonia" there, but I assume you'll shrill: "It means first century Israel!" But the context in the next chapter disproves that notion:

            Scripture Verse: Zechariah 6

            I looked up again, and there before me were four chariots coming out from between two mountains—mountains of bronze. 2The first chariot had red horses, the second black, 3 the third white, and the fourth dappled—all of them powerful. 4 I asked the angel who was speaking to me, “What are these, my lord?”

            5 The angel answered me, “These are the four spirits of heaven, going out from standing in the presence of the Lord of the whole world. 6 The one with the black horses is going toward the north country, the one with the white horses toward the west, and the one with the dappled horses toward the south.”

            7 When the powerful horses went out, they were straining to go throughout the earth. And he said, “Go throughout the earth!” So they went throughout the earth.

            8 Then he called to me, “Look, those going toward the north country have given my Spirit rest in the land of the north.”

            © Copyright Original Source



            And of course these are an exact parallel to the four horsemen in Revelation that you have unsuccessfully attempted to convince us was an entirely local phenomenon to Jerusalem. Repent.

            Comment


            • #51
              You are veering off in a multitude of directions that have nothing to do with the original theme of your post, Darfius. Of course, you as the author of the post to begin with, have that privilege to steer it in whatever direction you want, but for the reading audience, it renders it difficult to wade through.

              You and I differ on many points simply because each of us is seeing a different "dictionary" of scripture's terms. You have stated that you believe the imminent dangers expected for us at present are the "opening of the pit" from Revelation that will torment those thrown into it. In this, you are equating the "Lake of Fire" with being a tormenting, perpetual pit of Hell for all the deceived dead at the end of the world. This is not how scripture describes the Lake of Fire (or Hell either, for that matter). Hell is not the equivalent of the Lake of Fire, which is defined as "the Second Death". Death and Hell were thrown INTO the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20:14), meaning they are not the same thing as the Lake of Fire.

              Actually, the location for the Lake of Fire was described long ago in Isaiah 31:9, "...saith the Lord, whose FIRE IS IN *ZION*, and HIS FURNACE IN *JERUSALEM*". The Lake of Fire is called "The Second Death" in Rev. 20:14 because it is the SECOND time that the capital city of Jerusalem and the nation died (similar to its first death under the Babylonian invasion back in 586 BC). The entire book of Lamentations is more or less Jeremiah's funeral dirge for Jerusalem and the nation which had just died. At that time, Jerusalem had Death and Hell (Hades - the grave) descend upon it. The rulers in Jerusalem thought that they had made a covenant with both Death and Hell, so that it would not come upon them. God told them that their covenant with both Death and Hell (Hades - the grave) would not stand, but would be disannulled. Death and Hell would overtake them, and they would be trodden down by it (Isaiah 28:15-18). Under Nebuchadnezzar, this first death of the nation and its temple came to pass. God "kindled a fire in Zion" and it "devoured the foundations" of Jerusalem (Lam. 4:11).

              Ezekiel's "Valley of the Dry Bones" prophecy described that dead nation of Israel having new life breathed into it, which came to pass in the post-exilic return when God again declared that His Spirit would remain among them as they labored to rebuild the Temple under Zerubbabel's governance and Joshua's high priesthood (Haggai 2:4-5). This renewal to life again for the nation under Nehemiah, Ezra, Joshua, and Zerubbabel was a covenant that Israel later on broke once again, resulting in its Second Death in their AD 70 era judgment.

              For Jerusalem's "Second Death", this same "furnace of fire" in the city of Jerusalem was mentioned again in Matthew 23:41-42. At the end of that AGE, (not the end of all human history), the angels would cast all the iniquitous and offending ones into that "FURNACE OF FIRE" in Jerusalem, resulting in wailing and gnashing of teeth. That very same "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is specific to those who would claim in that day that "We have eaten and drunk IN THY PRESENCE, and THOU HAST TAUGHT IN OUR STREETS" (Luke 13:20). This is a claim that ONLY THAT GENERATION OF FIRST-CENTURY JEWS would be saying at Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives, when they would see their ancient fathers gathered and sitting in the kingdom, with themselves still alive and thrust outside the "door", experiencing all of Jerusalem's AD 70's physical and demonic torments, and being unable to participate in that resurrection and rapture to heaven for the saints.

              At the close of AD 70, Josephus wrote that the city from an outside view appeared to be totally engulfed in flames. A "Lake of Fire" indeed, with Death and Hell (Hades - the grave) overtaking the citizens once more in its final overthrow. Never again would Jerusalem rise to counter the superior high priesthood of Christ and the more glorious Temple made of "living stones" - the New Jerusalem you and I live in today as believers.
              Last edited by 3 Resurrections; 07-25-2021, 10:07 AM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                That is the source of some of the confusion here, 3 Resurrections. This is not "a lively exchange between two believers who happen to have dissenting views of what Scripture's intent was". We are discussing whether or not a hell pit will open soon and torment everyone who is not right with God in the specific ways they need to be right with God that Revelation details. In other words, there are very real consequences resulting from which of us is right. And "iron sharpening iron" assumes that both parties genuinely have good intentions and at any rate applies to interpersonal conditions. This is a public forum, not interpersonal conditions.
                Then perhaps you should be concerned about your own soul, given that you admitted that you "hate" Western Christians earlier in this thread, and the Bible does teach that anybody who hates a brother is not saved.
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

                  Then perhaps you should be concerned about your own soul, given that you admitted that you "hate" Western Christians earlier in this thread, and the Bible does teach that anybody who hates a brother is not saved.
                  Mind quoting where I "admitted" that? I can't find it.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Ah, I found what I think you mean in a different thread: https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...it#post1284885

                    I said "bordering on hatred" for a reason. I don't hate them, though I do sometimes get close to hating them in the same way God hated Esau. Surely if God can do something it cannot be wrong to do. And most of them aren't my brothers anyway. It would take far more than merely claiming to be so to be so. Jesus said, "He who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother." Note that He didn't say, "He who assents to a certain thought in their mind, once, during an emotional frenzy or even a few times during lazy Sundays musing in a comfy armchair is my brother." There should be nothing controversial about what I'm saying. But Western "Christianity" has made it controversial.

                    It was during the Healing Revivals of the 1950s that prosperity theology first came to prominence in the United States, although commentators have linked the origins of its theology to the New Thought movement which began in the 19th century. The prosperity teaching later figured prominently in the Word of Faith movement and 1980s televangelism. In the 1990s and 2000s, it was adopted by influential leaders in the Pentecostal movement and charismatic movement in the United States and has spread throughout the world. Prominent leaders in the development of prosperity theology include E. W. Kenyon,[4]Oral Roberts,[5]A. A. Allen,[6]Robert Tilton,[7]T. L. Osborn,[8]Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar,[9]Kenneth Copeland,[10]Reverend Ike,[11] and Kenneth Hagin.
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

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