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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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2nd Coming

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  • 2nd Coming

    Scripture Verse: Revelation 19

    19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Questions for preterists: 1. Is this the 2nd Coming? 2. Who is the beast?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Darfius View Post
    Scripture Verse: Revelation 19

    19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Questions for preterists: 1. Is this the 2nd Coming? 2. Who is the beast?

    Supposedly they argue the Beast was Nero. But then that view would render that passage incoherent and nonsensical.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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    • #3
      It is a symbolic vision, as is nearly everything in Revelation once we get past the opening letters. It may be the case that it *represents* the Second Coming (and almost certainly is), but that would render it a vision representing the parousia, not the parousia itself.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        It is a symbolic vision, as is nearly everything in Revelation once we get past the opening letters. It may be the case that it *represents* the Second Coming (and almost certainly is), but that would render it a vision representing the parousia, not the parousia itself.
        Why is the parousia represented as a violent clash headed by an individual named the beast?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          It is a symbolic vision, as is nearly everything in Revelation once we get past the opening letters. It may be the case that it *represents* the Second Coming (and almost certainly is), but that would render it a vision representing the parousia, not the parousia itself.
          Preterists (at least most of them I've seen) say the Beast is Nero. So how do you work that in that scenario? Even just as symbolism is beyond nonsensical.
          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

          Comment


          • #6
            Revelation isn't easy to decipher. I can't rule out the possibility that the beast is representative of atheism.

            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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            • #7
              Originally posted by seanD View Post

              Preterists (at least most of them I've seen) say the Beast is Nero. So how do you work that in that scenario? Even just as symbolism is beyond nonsensical.
              I'm not dogmatic but I lean in a preterist direction, but I wouldn't identify the beast as Nero; I would identify it as representative of the powers on Earth that persecute and seek to frustrate Christ's work; Nero would be one such example, but not the singular one. The key is its defeat. I suppose this is more of an idealist interpretation than a preterist interpretation per se.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

                I'm not dogmatic but I lean in a preterist direction, but I wouldn't identify the beast as Nero; I would identify it as representative of the powers on Earth that persecute and seek to frustrate Christ's work; Nero would be one such example, but not the singular one. The key is its defeat. I suppose this is more of an idealist interpretation than a preterist interpretation per se.
                Well, Jesus told us we'd have persecution, so that's not much of a revelation because that's a given. What would you need a special book called Revelation if it was that generalized?

                And then I'd have to, of course, refer you to Rev 13. That activity doesn't look generalized, that looks pretty specific. At least the Nero preterists recognize that much.
                "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seanD View Post

                  Well, Jesus told us we'd have persecution, so that's not much of a revelation because that's a given. What would you need a special book called Revelation if it was that generalized?

                  And then I'd have to, of course, refer you to <a href="https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Rev+13&amp;t=NIV" target="BLB_NW" rel="NIV.Rev.13" class="BLBST_a" style="white-space: nowrap;">Rev 13</a>. That activity doesn't look generalized, that looks pretty specific. At least the Nero preterists recognize that much.
                  Given that the early Christians felt comfortable reinterpreting the identify with 616/666 and applying it to different leaders, it seems plausible they recognized that it could be interpreted more broadly.

                  And seriously, why would the book of Revelation be necessary given that persecution was taught by Jesus. Seriously? I wouldn't expect such a profoundly dumb statement from you. Why should Christians have access to books like Tortured for Christ when it's superfluous because we already know we will be persecuted? Why should Paul discuss persecution in his letters in great detail to provide comfort if Jesus already mentions? The book provides encouragement and reassurement to Christians tempted to apostasize in any generation, whether it be to a Roman imperial cult or into the apathy of American consumerism.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

                    Given that the early Christians felt comfortable reinterpreting the identify with 616/666 and applying it to different leaders, it seems plausible they recognized that it could be interpreted more broadly.

                    And seriously, why would the book of Revelation be necessary given that persecution was taught by Jesus. Seriously? I wouldn't expect such a profoundly dumb statement from you. Why should Christians have access to books like Tortured for Christ when it's superfluous because we already know we will be persecuted? Why should Paul discuss persecution in his letters in great detail to provide comfort if Jesus already mentions? The book provides encouragement and reassurement to Christians tempted to apostasize in any generation, whether it be to a Roman imperial cult or into the apathy of American consumerism.
                    I get why a book would be written as encouragement for Christians going through persecution, but that doesn't seem to be what Revelation's stated purpose is for. In the beginning it says it's a Revelation of things to come. There was no special revelation about that. Even if one wants to assume Revelation was written before 70 AD (which is completely bogus), we clearly see in Acts and Paul's letters Christians were getting killed, beaten, flayed, thrown in prison before 70 AD. Christians are still getting persecuted to this day as they were in the early centuries. Point being, something was to come in the future as Rev clearly indicates that required a special Revelation. It's not talking about just generalized persecution of Christians. Christians were getting persecuted before and after Revelation was written.

                    And again, how do you interpret Rev 13, because that seems pretty specific?

                    There's never been a point in human history that Rev has been literally fulfilled, nor has there ever been a time this was remotely possible, so there was no reason for Christians to make those dumb assumptions about who the Beast was. But it is what it is. It's just a natural urge fro people do.
                    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      SeanD, the stated purpose of Revelation was not just about “things to come”.

                      It concerned “things ABOUT TO come”…with real urgency applied to that first-century audience who were to expect that “at hand” fulfillment for all of Revelation’s revealed prophecies (excepting the sealed-up utterances in Rev. 10:4, which applied to times in the distant future to Revelation’s first-century audience).

                      Persecution common to “all those who live godly in Christ Jesus” was not the main theme of Revelation. Instead, Revelation was dedicated to revealing the timing of Christ Jesus’s soon-coming AD 70 bodily return to the Mount of Olives, as Zechariah had foretold long before.

                      Any traditional belief in a late-date composition for Revelation is in error, based on the internal witness of the book itself. Using all the internal proof available to us, Revelation’s composition date is pinned down to a precise date between late AD 59 to early AD 60 at the very latest.

                      You are all correct that Nero himself was NOT the Revelation 13 Beast; he is only one of the 10 crowned emperor horns on that first Rev. 13 Beast. That Rev. 13 Sea Beast had been in existence for 666 years as of the year John was writing Revelation; ever since Nebuchadnezzar had become the head of the representative “lion” empire - which was one of the features that characterized the Rev. 13 Sea Beast (Rev. 13:2).

                      The Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17 is yet another THIRD beast of Revelation that was “ABOUT TO arise” in John’s near future (Rev. 17:8). What is more important, it was ALSO “ABOUT TO…go into DESTRUCTION” soon after it had arisen to power again.

                      This means that the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast has been destroyed long ago, and is no longer a potential threat for us today, since it was thrown into Jerusalem’s Lake of Fire back in AD 70.

                      The Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast was the independent kingdom nation of Israel, which had at one time been created under the Maccabean victories, but became vanquished under subjugation to the Romans almost 80 years later. (This is why the Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17 has a fluctuating pattern of “WAS”, then “IS NOT”, then “IS ABOUT TO ARISE” in Rev. 17:8.)

                      This independent kingdom nation of Israel arose to existence once again when it was re-established by the Zealot rebellion against Rome in AD 66 (because John said it was “ABOUT TO ARISE” in his days). Soon after in AD 70, it was again destroyed for a final time by a combination of internecine warfare and the final AD 70 assault by the invading Roman armies (in fulfillment of John’s prophecy that it was also “ABOUT TO…go into destruction” in his days).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 3 Resurrections View Post
                        SeanD, the stated purpose of Revelation was not just about “things to come”.

                        It concerned “things ABOUT TO come”…with real urgency applied to that first-century audience who were to expect that “at hand” fulfillment for all of Revelation’s revealed prophecies (excepting the sealed-up utterances in Rev. 10:4, which applied to times in the distant future to Revelation’s first-century audience).

                        Persecution common to “all those who live godly in Christ Jesus” was not the main theme of Revelation. Instead, Revelation was dedicated to revealing the timing of Christ Jesus’s soon-coming AD 70 bodily return to the Mount of Olives, as Zechariah had foretold long before.

                        Any traditional belief in a late-date composition for Revelation is in error, based on the internal witness of the book itself. Using all the internal proof available to us, Revelation’s composition date is pinned down to a precise date between late AD 59 to early AD 60 at the very latest.

                        You are all correct that Nero himself was NOT the Revelation 13 Beast; he is only one of the 10 crowned emperor horns on that first Rev. 13 Beast. That Rev. 13 Sea Beast had been in existence for 666 years as of the year John was writing Revelation; ever since Nebuchadnezzar had become the head of the representative “lion” empire - which was one of the features that characterized the Rev. 13 Sea Beast (Rev. 13:2).

                        The Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17 is yet another THIRD beast of Revelation that was “ABOUT TO arise” in John’s near future (Rev. 17:8). What is more important, it was ALSO “ABOUT TO…go into DESTRUCTION” soon after it had arisen to power again.

                        This means that the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast has been destroyed long ago, and is no longer a potential threat for us today, since it was thrown into Jerusalem’s Lake of Fire back in AD 70.

                        The Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast was the independent kingdom nation of Israel, which had at one time been created under the Maccabean victories, but became vanquished under subjugation to the Romans almost 80 years later. (This is why the Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17 has a fluctuating pattern of “WAS”, then “IS NOT”, then “IS ABOUT TO ARISE” in Rev. 17:8.)

                        This independent kingdom nation of Israel arose to existence once again when it was re-established by the Zealot rebellion against Rome in AD 66 (because John said it was “ABOUT TO ARISE” in his days). Soon after in AD 70, it was again destroyed for a final time by a combination of internecine warfare and the final AD 70 assault by the invading Roman armies (in fulfillment of John’s prophecy that it was also “ABOUT TO…go into destruction” in his days).
                        I realize that preterists capitalize on the urgency of the early apostles, but that doesn't mean they were correct. Or I should say they were both wrong and correct at the same time. They were wrong in the sense that they thought it would all happen in their generation (although you could say aspects of the OD, as well as the sense of urgency helped them to avoid what had befallen Jerusalem in 70 AD), but they were correct that it was about to come in the sense that "a thousand years is as a day to the Lord." In God's time, it's only been two days since the works of the NT were written, so in the Spirit they were correct.
                        Last edited by seanD; 07-18-2021, 11:39 AM.
                        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          SeanD, that is a very common misperception of Peter’s words in II Peter 3:8. To paraphrase Peter, he was saying “Listen up everyone! If you guys don’t catch anything else I say, you need to at least understand this one vitally important fact: whether God makes a promise one literal day prior to fulfilling something, or makes a promise one thousand years in advance…both will come to pass at the exact stipulated time.”

                          You are attempting to deduce that time in scripture is an irrelevant thing to God that is meaningless. On the contrary, when God relates to man, His very divinity is proved by His “calling the shots” beforehand, and fulfilling prophesied events to the very day or the very year they were predicted to happen.

                          Through Isaiah 46:9-10, God said, “Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My council shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.”

                          Preterists do not “capitalize” on the time-relevant statements in NT scripture. We simply believe scripture meant what it said for those it was written to back then, complete with its warnings of imminent events before all of them Christ spoke to in that generation would have died. Many and varied are the terms and ways this urgency was expressed to those first-century Christians. So many that I am astounded that it took me 40 plus years of Bible study as a believer to see what was in front of me all the time.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

                            I'm not dogmatic but I lean in a preterist direction, but I wouldn't identify the beast as Nero; I would identify it as representative of the powers on Earth that persecute and seek to frustrate Christ's work; Nero would be one such example, but not the singular one. The key is its defeat. I suppose this is more of an idealist interpretation than a preterist interpretation per se.
                            So given your blending of eschatologies, would it be fair to say you don't really care what the truth of the matter is, despite Jesus' explicit command to watch so that the day does not overtake you unaware?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              Revelation isn't easy to decipher. I can't rule out the possibility that the beast is representative of atheism.

                              We can rule that out, because the beast is given authority through the dragon who is also worshipped. It's like you straight up can't read.

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