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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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The Elect

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  • The Elect

    Scripture Verse: Matthew

    24:22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Of vital importance to the proper understanding of eschatology is the question of who the elect are. In these three critical verses of our Lord, the elect define parameters such as the depth of the deception and the timing and duration of the time period being spoken of.

    One easy answer would be that the elect are “Christians”, but there's no need for guesswork. The Bible interprets the Bible.

    The word translated elect is the Greek word eklektós, which means chosen out and selected, by implication for favor.

    Scripture Verse: Luke 18

    7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones [eklektós], who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?

    © Copyright Original Source



    This proves the “eklektos” are not merely “Christians”, because of these verses:

    Scripture Verse: Genesis 4

    10 The Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s [Abel's] blood cries out to me from the ground.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Abel existed long before “Christians” did. Let's prove this out further:

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 23

    35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Here Abel is declared righteous by no less an authority than the Lord Jesus. How do we know “righteous” and “elect” can be equated? Great question:

    Scripture Verse: Romans 8

    33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen [eklektós]? It is God who justifies.

    © Copyright Original Source



    This is clear Hebrew parallelism (Paul is a Hebrew, though he wrote in Greek), which slightly rephrases something to clarify its meaning. In this instance, “chosen” stands juxtaposed to “justifies”. And in verse 30 he also equates the justified with those called “according to God's purpose”. It's important to note that it's not merely those called, but those called “according to God's purpose” and I will explain why.

    The Greek word translated justifies/justified is dikaioó, which means shown or declared to be righteous.

    So Abel being declared righteous by God means that he was one of the elect.

    The Bible distinguishes between the “called” and “the chosen” [elect]:

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 22

    14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    The Greek word translated “called” is a derivative of kaleó, which means “called, invited”. A parable of the Lord further illustrates the difference between called and chosen:

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 22

    1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited [kaleó] to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

    4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited [kaleó] that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

    5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

    8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited [kaleó] did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite [kaleó] to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

    11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

    13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

    14 “For many are invited [kaleó] , but few are chosen [eklektós].”

    © Copyright Original Source



    We will dive deeper into the differences between the two groups later, but this is sufficient for the present to display that a difference exists. Now we will proceed to display what the difference is.

    Scripture Verse: Numbers 1

    16 These were the men appointed from the community, the leaders of their ancestral tribes. They were the heads of the clans of Israel.

    17 Moses and Aaron took these men whose names had been specified, 18 and they called the whole community together on the first day of the second month.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Hebrew is not as “precise” a language as Greek, just as Greek is not as “precise” a language as English. One could argue that languages gain precision in what they lose in meaning, or that “meaning” is somewhere between a multifaceted approximation and a precise data point. There are several different words used for the concepts which correspond to the terms “called” and “chosen”.

    The whole of Israel was “called”, but of that “assembly/community/congregation” (terms that all roughly correspond to “those called”), certain were “appointed/chosen” by the Lord for a special purpose.

    This distinction is repeated here:

    Scripture Verse: Numbers 16

    1 Korah son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and certain Reubenites—Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth—became insolent 2 and rose up against Moses. With them were 250 Israelite men, well-known community leaders who had been appointed members of the council.

    © Copyright Original Source



    The word translated “appointed” has the meaning of “called”! This means that they were the called of the called--the doubly called. Already there is a suggestion of different levels in man's relationship to and with God. And this notion is reinforced in the structure of the “assembly”. Being composed of 13 tribes, there is one tribe—Levi--which is “called” to minister to the Lord's sacred dwelling. And from among the Levites, there are certain persons called to be priests, who are permitted to serve within the Lord's sacred dwelling. And from among the priests, there is one high priest who alone is permitted to enter the Most Holy place. So we see from this that while many are “called”, few are “doubly (or even more) called” to participate in closer relationships with the Lord.

    The ignorance (often willful) of this fact often leads to the dangerous blurring of the lines the Lord Himself drew between those called to be dedicated to Him and those who respond to the call and are therefore called to closer levels of dedication. And this is not just a modern phenomenon, as we can see from the context of “Korah's rebellion”.

    Scripture Verse: Numbers 16

    3 They came as a group to oppose Moses and Aaron and said to them, “You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the Lord’s assembly?”

    4 When Moses heard this, he fell facedown. 5 Then he said to Korah and all his followers: “In the morning the Lord will show who belongs to him and who is holy, and he will have that person come near him. The man he chooses he will cause to come near him. 6 You, Korah, and all your followers are to do this: Take censers 7 and tomorrow put burning coals and incense in them before the Lord. The man the Lord chooses will be the one who is holy. You Levites have gone too far!”

    8 Moses also said to Korah, “Now listen, you Levites! 9 Isn’t it enough for you that the God of Israel has separated you from the rest of the Israelite community and brought you near himself to do the work at the Lord’s tabernacle and to stand before the community and minister to them? 10 He has brought you and all your fellow Levites near himself, but now you are trying to get the priesthood too. 11 It is against the Lord that you and all your followers have banded together. Who is Aaron that you should grumble against him?”

    © Copyright Original Source



    Korah and his gang declared that the Lord's distinctions were pointless because “the whole community was holy (called)” and “the Lord was with them” (the idea is that they were all “covered in the blood” or that they were all “chosen” or “righteous”).

    For the sake of not lengthening this post still more, to sum it up, it didn't work out for Korah and gang. In fact, they were said to have treated the Lord with “contempt” and were dealt with accordingly. His distinctions will be respected.

    So “appointed” and “chosen” roughly correspond and this can be seen in a variation on “the elect”--election:

    Scripture Verse: Romans 9

    10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    The Greek word translated election is eklogé, which combines the idea of choosing and appointing, as the context of the verse shows: “God's purpose in election”.

    That was preparatory to introducing another related term:

    Scripture Verse: Romans 8

    14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

    © Copyright Original Source



    The Greek word translated adoption is huiothesia, which is a compound word made from the Greek words hyiós (son) and títhēmi (to place/appoint): to appoint as a son (adopt).

    Scripture Verse: Ephesians 1

    3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

    11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

    © Copyright Original Source



    More Hebrew parallelism. “When the times reach their fulfillment” is the same as “until the redemption of those who are God's possession”. Paul is speaking in future terms, and he hot dang diddly didn't mean 70 AD.

    So “God's possession” = the called = the chosen = the appointed = the adopted = the elect. That root títhēmi meaning place/appoint now requires expounding:

    I touched on this earlier by pointing out the differences in the Hebrew and Greek languages, but those differences spring from the differences in thought between the two peoples/cultures. The Greeks were the “fathers” (acknowledged, at least) of “Western philosophy”:

    Western philosophy refers to the philosophical thought and work of the Western world. Historically, the term refers to the philosophical thinking of Western culture, beginning with the ancient Greek philosophy of the pre-Socratics. The word philosophy itself originated from the Ancient Greek philosophía (φιλοσοφία), literally, "the love of wisdom" (φιλεῖν phileîn, "to love" and σοφία sophía, "wisdom").


    Again in the interest of saving space, this boils down to a love and hyper development of abstract thought in the Greeks. It's not that the Hebrews were incapable of abstract thought, but rather they as a general rule tended to think in much more “concrete” terms.

    For example, the abstract concept of anger is written in ancient Hebrew awph, which is the word for nose. In the Hebrew mind, when someone was angry, their nose would warm up and their nostrils would flare.

    So to the Hebrew mind, to “appoint” or “place” someone was to “put” them as you would “put” an object somewhere and to “plant” them as a tree with firm roots. We have a vestige of this way of thinking when we say someone has “planted firm roots” somewhere.

    Scripture Verse: Genesis 2

    8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put [títhēmi in the Greek Septuagint] the man he had formed.

    © Copyright Original Source



    If you're not aware by now that the garden of Eden was a temple, you're behind the (end)times. Which makes “plant” and “put” sacred terms here and certain other places.

    Scripture Verse: Ezekiel 28

    13 You were in Eden,
    the garden of God; …

    14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
    for so I ordained you.
    You were on the holy mount of God;
    you walked among the fiery stones.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Genesis 21



    33 Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there he called on the name of the Lord, the Eternal God.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Exodus 15

    17 You will bring them in and plant them
    on the mountain of your inheritance—
    the place, Lord, you made for your dwelling,
    the sanctuary, Lord, your hands established.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: 2 Samuel 7

    8 “Now then, tell my servant David, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty says: I took you from the pasture, from tending the flock, and appointed you ruler over my people Israel. 9 I have been with you wherever you have gone, and I have cut off all your enemies from before you. Now I will make your name great, like the names of the greatest men on earth. 10 And I will provide a place for my people Israel and will plant them so that they can have a home of their own and no longer be disturbed. Wicked people will not oppress them anymore, as they did at the beginning 11 and have done ever since the time I appointed leaders over my people Israel. I will also give you rest from all your enemies.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Psalm 80

    8 You transplanted a vine from Egypt;
    you drove out the nations and planted it.
    9 You cleared the ground for it,
    and it took root and filled the land.
    10 The mountains were covered with its shade,
    the mighty cedars with its branches.
    11 Its branches reached as far as the Sea,
    its shoots as far as the River.

    12 Why have you broken down its walls
    so that all who pass by pick its grapes?
    13 Boars from the forest ravage it,
    and insects from the fields feed on it.
    14 Return to us, God Almighty!
    Look down from heaven and see!
    Watch over this vine,
    15 the root your right hand has planted,
    the son you have raised up (appointed) for yourself.

    © Copyright Original Source



    So God's chosen/elect being compared to planted trees is replete through the Old and New Testaments.

    Scripture Verse: Psalm 1

    1 Blessed is the one
    who does not walk in step with the wicked
    or stand in the way that sinners take
    or sit in the company of mockers,
    2 but whose delight is in the law of the Lord,
    and who meditates on his law day and night.
    3 That person is like a tree planted by streams of water,
    which yields its fruit in season
    and whose leaf does not wither—
    whatever they do prospers.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Hosea 9

    10 “When I found Israel,
    it was like finding grapes in the desert;
    when I saw your ancestors,
    it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 24

    3 Then the Lord asked me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?”

    Figs,” I answered. “The good ones are very good, but the bad ones are so bad they cannot be eaten.”

    4 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 5 “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians. 6 My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7 I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Which brings us to:

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 24

    32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

    © Copyright Original Source



    A fig tree is only ever used to symbolize ethnic Israel in Scripture and God does not contradict Himself or His word. The Lord Jesus was counting on His listeners/readers actually knowing Scripture to interpret what He said.

    Christians are only ever compared to a different tree:

    Scripture Verse: Romans 11

    11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

    13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

    17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

    22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

    © Copyright Original Source



    And even here the tree is called Israel's “natural” tree, with Gentile Christians having to be grafted (planted) in.

    So the sign of the fig tree that the Lord Jesus gave unquestionably involves national/ethnic Israel. This is also supported elsewhere, and we will tie in the concept of election:

    Scripture Verse: Romans 11



    25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

    “The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
    27 And this is my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”

    28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

    © Copyright Original Source



    God's call is irrevocable. And He called the nation of Israel to be kings and priests. He still needs to deliver them as a nation. They are His chosen nation.

    In fact, the Bible (God) presents the permanent destruction of the nation of Israel as untenable for God because “the enemy” would “think their hand had done this”, rather than it being what it was, a temporary judgment from God:

    Scripture Verse: Deuteronomy 32

    26 I said I would scatter them

    and erase their name from human memory,

    27 but I dreaded the taunt of the enemy,

    lest the adversary misunderstand

    and say, ‘Our hand has triumphed;

    the Lord has not done all this.’

    28 They are a nation without sense,

    there is no discernment in them.

    29 If only they were wise and would understand this

    and discern what their end will be!



    43 Rejoice, you nations, with his people,

    for he will avenge the blood of his servants; [recall Luke 18:7 and Revelation 6:10]

    he will take vengeance on his enemies

    and make atonement for his land and people.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Lamentations 2

    1 How the Lord has covered Daughter Zion
    with the cloud of his anger!
    He has hurled down the splendor of Israel
    from heaven to earth;
    he has not remembered his footstool
    in the day of his anger.



    7 The Lord has rejected his altar
    and abandoned his sanctuary.
    He has given the walls of her palaces
    into the hands of the enemy;
    they have raised a shout in the house of the Lord
    as on the day of an appointed festival.



    16 All your enemies open their mouths
    wide against you;
    they scoff and gnash their teeth
    and say, “We have swallowed her up.
    This is the day we have waited for;
    we have lived to see it
    .”

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Psalm 74



    1 O God, why have you rejected us forever?
    Why does your anger smolder against the sheep of your pasture?
    2 Remember the nation you purchased long ago,
    the people of your inheritance, whom you redeemed
    Mount Zion, where you dwelt.
    3 Turn your steps toward these everlasting ruins,
    all this destruction the enemy has brought on the sanctuary.

    4 Your foes roared in the place where you met with us;
    they set up their standards as signs
    .
    5 They behaved like men wielding axes
    to cut through a thicket of trees.
    6 They smashed all the carved paneling
    with their axes and hatchets.
    7 They burned your sanctuary to the ground;
    they defiled the dwelling place of your Name.
    8 They said in their hearts, “We will crush them completely!”
    They burned every place where God was worshiped in the land.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Back to the elect:

    Scripture Verse: Romans 9

    1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

    © Copyright Original Source



    The argument is not that ethnic Israel were elect/chosen by virtue of being ethnic Israel. Paul himself refutes that notion, as well as other Scripture. But that the special call from God to become/join the elect originated with them, and particularly the patriarchs, who are mentioned in both Romans 9 and 11.

    But Paul would not waste space in Scripture arguing irrelevancies. His argument here and culminating in Romans 11 is that because “election” originated with ethnic Israel, it is only right and fair for it to end with them, too. If election for them is something God need not honor, then what assurance can the “Christian” possibly have?

    Which brings us to precisely what qualifies someone as “the elect”, beginning with the patriarchs:

    Scripture Verse: Genesis 15

    6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Abraham believed and so was declared righteous by God and so chosen, but his belief was proved by his works:

    Scripture Verse: Genesis 22

    9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”



    12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”



    15 The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    Here Abraham's righteousness and subsequent blessings/appointment/election are credited to his obedience. Faith without works is dead.

    And take note that his election came with a promise that his descendants would “take possession of the cities of their enemies”! If the nation of Israel was destroyed forever in 70 AD, God's promises and His calls would be revocable. God forbid!

    Are you, dear reader, prepared to earn your election the way Abraham, called the father of the faithful, earned his? If not, then do not dare to call yourself a Christian, because Christ told you to pick up your cross and follow Him. And election is neither sure nor irrevocable:

    Scripture Verse: 2 Peter 1

    10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

    © Copyright Original Source



    And to reiterate, the Lord Jesus said it was possible:

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 24

    24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Now for the crème de la crème:

    Scripture Verse: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

    5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

    13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

    16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.

    © Copyright Original Source



    The “day of the Lord”'s defining feature is presented here as “great delusion” and deception which will separate those who “believe the truth and are saved” from those who “believe the lie and are condemned”. And this also aligns with the Lord's description of “that day”:

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 24

    3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

    4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Deception is the first thing the Lord warns will indicate the “end of the age”!

    A deception so great that “even the elect” might be deceived, if it is possible for them to “refuse to love the truth”, which would prove that they were “called, but not chosen (elect)”.

    Belief in Jesus Christ and belief in the truth are in the greatest sense one and the same. He is the Truth. But just as it did for Abraham, that belief will translate into works, even great works:

    Scripture Verse: John 14

    11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

    © Copyright Original Source



    A prophecy that has not as yet been fulfilled.

    And though Jesus is the greatest embodiment of the truth, He said that Another would come to “guide us into all truth”:

    Scripture Verse: John 15

    26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.



    John 16:7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

    12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    So being “the elect” in the context of Matthew 24 is to believe in and allow one's self to be guided into “all the truth” and so be saved, rather than suppressing the truth with one's wickedness, during a time when ethnic Israel “buds” again after a lengthy period of inactivity.

    We will finish by revisiting the wedding banquet parable, which is intentionally echoed in Revelation (and in God's frequent pronouncements that He would restore Israel “as a husband turns back to his forsaken wife”).

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 22

    11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

    13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

    14 “For many are invited [kaleó] , but few are chosen [eklektós].”

    © Copyright Original Source



    Notice that we go from a wedding banquet to “outer darkness”, which is a phrase associated with eschatological judgment in Scripture. And what did the man do to deserve such banishment? Was he not called (invited)? Yes, but he was not chosen, and that by his own doing. He refused to wear the proper garments. And what are the proper garments?

    Scripture Verse: Revelation 19

    6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

    “Hallelujah!
    For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
    7 Let us rejoice and be glad
    and give him glory!
    For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
    and his bride has made herself ready.
    8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
    was given her to wear.”

    (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

    9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited [kaleó] to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

    © Copyright Original Source


  • #2
    Originally posted by Darfius View Post


    Seriously have you ever considered a blog for that?

    I know that I've posted some long OPs before but... wow!

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #3
      Eek such a long post I was reading and reading and decided to see how much further I had to go and it was too far.

      Comment


      • #4
        So any thoughts on the actual content of the post? Weird to complain about reading on a forum.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Darfius View Post
          So any thoughts on the actual content of the post? Weird to complain about reading on a forum.
          There was too much content? For me. To go into such detail about just one word, the elect? I lose heart . We, the born again believers are the elect imo.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Esther View Post

            There was too much content? For me. To go into such detail about just one word, the elect? I lose heart . We, the born again believers are the elect imo.
            I'm trying not to be too smart alecky here, Esther, because you seem sweet, but isn't the Bible itself a lot of content? Don't we have an obligation as alleged "believers" to try to understand it the way the Lord wants us to?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Darfius View Post
              So any thoughts on the actual content of the post? Weird to complain about reading on a forum.
              It's not the reading that's the problem, the responding to the massive Elephant hurl that's the problem.
              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post

                It's not the reading that's the problem, the responding to the massive Elephant hurl that's the problem.
                Not really. Either find something factually incorrect in the logic or say, "great post, Darfius, thanks for the instruction". I honestly don't understand the logic behind complaining about reading on a forum. It's one thing to say that someone is verbose and wrong, but to simply complain about reading? You sound dumb.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                  Not really. Either find something factually incorrect in the logic or say, "great post, Darfius, thanks for the instruction". I honestly don't understand the logic behind complaining about reading on a forum. It's one thing to say that someone is verbose and wrong, but to simply complain about reading? You sound dumb.
                  I read the whole thing....Twice!

                  So, taking your advice I'll just say...You sound verbose and wrong.
                  Last edited by Littlejoe; 04-27-2021, 03:42 PM.
                  "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                  "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Darfius, how about Mathew 24:22 in the Amplified Bible for an explanation of who the elect are?

                    22 And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would endure and survive, but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post

                      I read the whole thing....Twice!

                      So, taking your advice I'll just say...You sound verbose and wrong.
                      No specifics? Good Lord, I knew you people were dishonest, but now you're not even hiding it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Rather than worry about who "the elect" are, how bout just being obedient to Jesus and spread the word?

                        Mark 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

                        Tell people about Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit, leaving the results to God.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Esther View Post
                          Darfius, how about Mathew 24:22 in the Amplified Bible for an explanation of who the elect are?

                          22 And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would endure and survive, but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened.
                          Esther, "chosen ones" is one of the definitions I provided, but that's still too ambiguous to gather all of the answers the Lord provides in His speech. As I mention in the post, there are things one must do to be chosen by God, "chosen" having a connotation of being "called out" from among a larger group to a smaller group in closer fellowship with Him.
                          Last edited by Darfius; 04-27-2021, 04:37 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Rather than worry about who "the elect" are, how bout just being obedient to Jesus and spread the word?

                            Mark 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

                            Tell people about Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit, leaving the results to God.
                            This is meaningless, undefined "holy speak" that has led to the horrid state of the world "Christians" have allowed today. What is the "gospel"? What constitutes "preaching"? How does one know one is "in the power of the Holy Spirit"? My post, which you are either too lazy or too cowardly to respond with specifics to, addresses all of the above.

                            Korah said some meaningless, undefined "holy speak" like that right before being swallowed alive into hell. Repent.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                              No specifics? Good Lord, I knew you people were dishonest, but now you're not even hiding it.
                              This must be you showing your Christian nature. There is nothing dishonest in what LJ said.

                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment

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